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jetmasters

shoryuken

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481

Saturday, September 16th 2017, 7:40pm

Ok but you are being completely off here. My response was actally mainly to rdbfabio not even the Chinese who keeps mentioning how unimportant everything is after people disagreed with him. If you read my posts carefully you will understand my point. Bye
If you think U23 is not a consolation tournament, at least bring in valid arguments and not criticize a fanbase because you are triggered by your own bias. This U23 tournament is meaningless because it was newly added in 2013. Other 2 U events were added in 70s and 80s. In addition to FIVB and fans not caring for it, I can't think of a way to describe this event other than just a consolation prize for players to win something.

Even GCC has more meaning compared to other World tournaments at the senior level. U23 compared to other U events is as meaningless as whatever anyone can describe it to be. FIVB even use this event to test out a crappy scoring system because it is the most useless event for FIVB. If it is important to you, then fine. Just don't be offended because someone else disagrees with you the same way you feel for the GCC.

beri

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482

Saturday, September 16th 2017, 7:50pm

Ok, do you want a sticker now?

ST2008

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483

Saturday, September 16th 2017, 10:13pm

When the gymnasium is almost empty of spectators, the video streaming is very crappy and the commentator is not Clayton Lucas and he doesn't speak English either for the semi-final and for the final game, these say all how important the U23 tournament is.

beri

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484

Saturday, September 16th 2017, 10:44pm

When the gymnasium is almost empty of spectators, the video streaming is very crappy and the commentator is not Clayton Lucas and he doesn't speak English either for the semi-final and for the final game, these say all how important the U23 tournament is.


https://youtu.be/SjBKj2lzPR0

This is all I will share with you ;) look at this video of Wch U23 2015. All the things you describe have to do with the venue and its lack of volleyball culture so pretry much invalid what you're saying. :wavy:

Why are people still going on about this anyway. It is completely off-topic to begin with. I didn't even bring WGCC up, you guys started talking about that because like I said it is stupid compare a Senior tour with a U tour. This tournament is super important for the fact that it is one step before senior NT and coaches will decide their future NT players. The best players will be called to the next big tournaments and possibly even Tokyo! Also being World Champions means that they're the BEST of their generation which is another reason. Being the best of your generation says a lot about the future. Oh and I guess it is also a consolation tournament apart from that... So what, I've made a lot of arguments why this is important but people only see what they want to see. Turkey for example found a solid Opp which was what we were looking for for years! People here act like I said this is more important then Olympics and start attacking me without anything to back up their statement. :teach:

ST2008

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485

Saturday, September 16th 2017, 11:17pm

https://youtu.be/SjBKj2lzPR0

This is all I will share with you look at this video of Wch U23 2015. All the things you describe have to do with the venue and its lack of volleyball culture so pretry much invalid what you're saying.

Why are people still going on about this anyway. It is completely off-topic to begin with. I didn't even bring WGCC up, you guys started talking about that because like I said it is stupid compare a Senior tour with a U tour. This tournament is super important for the fact that it is one step before senior NT and coaches will decide their future NT players. The best players will be called to the next big tournaments and possibly even Tokyo! Also being World Champions means that they're the BEST of their generation which is another reason. Being the best of your generation says a lot about the future. Oh and I guess it is also a consolation tournament apart from that... So what, I've made a lot of arguments why this is important but people only see what they want to see. Turkey for example found a solid Opp which was what we were looking for for years! People here act like I said this is more important then Olympics and start attacking me without anything to back up their statement.
Well, if this tournament is so important for the Europeans, especially for the Turkey's fans, then why the only spectators for the semi-final are team staff ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3853Q_IJAWQ . If the U23 is very important for you, then go to discuss your point of view in the U23 thread. But this thread is about the Chinese NT and many Asian fans don't consider the U23 or other Uxx as very important tournaments. I have no problem that you defend your point of views, but stop exaggerating and playing victim card. AFAIK, no one attack you.

beri

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486

Saturday, September 16th 2017, 11:26pm

What you want Turkish supporters in Slovenia which is miles away? Funny how you said the exact same as Told you back to me. The only reason I'm still here is because people respond to me and naturally I try to defend myself. I don't know if you watched the link I gave you but if you did you would see that if it was held in a country with more volleyball culture it would have been organized better. The link I gave you has even more atmosphere then many very important tournaments we haves seen.

I already told you why I think it is important to me and gave you my arguments. If you want to hold a convo like a proper adult then respond to these arguments or come with new arguments instead of responding the same things over and over like a toddler.

ST2008

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487

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 12:58am

I had watched the video from your link. It was an U23 tournement from 2015. But now we are in 2017 and the only "spectators" we found in the recent tournament are some team staff in the spectator seat. It's funny that you accuse me for saying the same things when yourself repeat again and again the same craps. As I said earlier, If the Uxx tournament is so important for you then go defend your point of views in the Uxx thread or in the Turkey NT thread. If you found your superstars in the Uxx tournements, well good for you and I'm not sarcastic for saying this. But this is the Chinese NT thread. Try at least to find something related to Chinese NT if you want your argumentation to be credible. And oh btw, it's so funny that there are always Turkey fans in almost any CEV tournaments. But for the U23 tournament, Slovenia becomes suddenly a very "far" country. :whistle:

jetmasters

shoryuken

Posts: 178

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488

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 2:50am

Ok, do you want a sticker now?
At least try to defend your point of view instead of sarcasm. This tournament doesn't even have the best U23 players from top teams. It is for those who got demoted or failed to solidify their spot in their respective national teams to make an impression for future selection. Possibly the best generation in 2013 U20 WC which includes Zhu, Boskovic, and Gabi didn't even play in this event because they already proven to be A list members. Everyone else here are just unproven so not sure why you keep exaggerating their greatness without any substance.

The WGCC keeps getting brought up because teams that earned their place actually brought their best available players, even more so than the WGP. But most Euro supporters, including yourself, keep bringing down its importance and disrespect world class players that actually want to win it just because it doesn't involve your team. You keep saying you can't compare U23 to World, but this logic also means you can't compare continental to World events but you guys insist ECh is more important than meaningless WGCC and even WC. It totally contradicts your argument and shows your bias. If the U23 is so important, then why spend more time here instead of the dedicated thread? :rolll:

beri

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489

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 3:19am

And here you are still being :offtopic: This conversation is stupid and more meaningless then U23 and WGCC combined :lol: lets just agree to disagree?

On-topic: I was criticizing Zhu a lot last season but I have to say she is really starting her road to being a legend. Only thing is I hope it is not affecting the rest of the China players since all sets are to Zhu and she even covers a lot of reception lately. I can already see some players losing confidence and dedication. China although ofc much better can face a similar to what Korea did. If Zhu once slows down it can make the team collapse but I don't see this hapenning either since China has a loads of talents to work with.

ST2008

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490

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 4:33am

On-topic: I was criticizing Zhu a lot last season but I have to say she is really starting her road to being a legend. Only thing is I hope it is not affecting the rest of the China players since all sets are to Zhu and she even covers a lot of reception lately. I can already see some players losing confidence and dedication. China although ofc much better can face a similar to what Korea did. If Zhu once slows down it can make the team collapse but I don't see this hapenning either since China has a loads of talents to work with.


I know you're a fan of Zhu Ting, so my reply is not really for you. In fact, what makes me laugh about the discussion regarding Zhu Ting is if someone states that the Chinese NT is a strong team, there are always haters are going to say that the Chinese NT is a weak team without Zhu Ting. But in the opposite, if someone says Zhu Ting is a legend, almost the same haters will argue that volleyball is a team sport and Zhu Ting is nothing without her strong teammates. I hope one of them can come here and explain to us their contradictions.

tomen

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491

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 5:09am

On-topic: I was criticizing Zhu a lot last season but I have to say she is really starting her road to being a legend. Only thing is I hope it is not affecting the rest of the China players since all sets are to Zhu and she even covers a lot of reception lately. I can already see some players losing confidence and dedication. China although ofc much better can face a similar to what Korea did. If Zhu once slows down it can make the team collapse but I don't see this hapenning either since China has a loads of talents to work with.


I know you're a fan of Zhu Ting, so my reply is not really for you. In fact, what makes me laugh about the discussion regarding Zhu Ting is if someone states that the Chinese NT is a strong team, there are always haters are going to say that the Chinese NT is a weak team without Zhu Ting. But in the opposite, if someone says Zhu Ting is a legend, almost the same haters will argue that volleyball is a team sport and Zhu Ting is nothing without her strong teammates. I hope one of them can come here and explain to us their contradictions.

So simply, the ones that think one national team equals one person's team are all t** *oo***h.
Volleyball is not of individualistic heroism whatever we think or see.
My favourite roster of Chinese
male NT:
S - Li Run-ming, Zhan Guo-jun
OP - Dai Qing-yao, Jiang Chuan
OH - Ji Dao-shuai, Xia Run-tao, Liu Li-bin, Zhang Chen
MB - Zhang Zhe-jia, Chen Long-hai, Geng Xin
L - Ren Qi

female NT:
S - Ding Xia, Yao Di
OP - Gong Xiang-yu, Zhang Chang-ning
OH - Hui Ruo-qi, Zhu Ting, Liu Xiao-tong, Li Jing
MB - Yuan Xin-yue, Yan Ni, Xu Yun-li
L - Lin Li

My avatar is Jiang Chuan. I hope more persons love him.

ST2008

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492

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 5:56am

So simply, the ones that think one national team equals one person's team are all t** *oo***h.
Volleyball is not of individualistic heroism whatever we think or see.
Then those haters should admit the Chinese NT is a strong team.

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493

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 10:56am

Ok, do you want a sticker now?
At least try to defend your point of view instead of sarcasm. This tournament doesn't even have the best U23 players from top teams. It is for those who got demoted or failed to solidify their spot in their respective national teams to make an impression for future selection. Possibly the best generation in 2013 U20 WC which includes Zhu, Boskovic, and Gabi didn't even play in this event because they already proven to be A list members. Everyone else here are just unproven so not sure why you keep exaggerating their greatness without any substance.

The WGCC keeps getting brought up because teams that earned their place actually brought their best available players, even more so than the WGP. But most Euro supporters, including yourself, keep bringing down its importance and disrespect world class players that actually want to win it just because it doesn't involve your team. You keep saying you can't compare U23 to World, but this logic also means you can't compare continental to World events but you guys insist ECh is more important than meaningless WGCC and even WC. It totally contradicts your argument and shows your bias. If the U23 is so important, then why spend more time here instead of the dedicated thread? :rolll:

Neither Zhu nor Gabi can play in this tournament since only 1995 and younger generations are allowed to play. The only players younger than 23 among BRA's last GP roster are Drussyla and Edinara, both of them are playing in this tournament and they couldn't even manage to reach semis in this tournament. Same with Zhu, she was born in 1994 so she is not eligible to play in this tournament but Wang Yunlu, Meizi Gong and Song Meili are, so they are with the team. Of course Zhang Changning and Yuan Xinyue were also eligible but it is CHN's choice not to bring those players (previously Turkey didn't let Hande Baladin play in U20 WCh). On the other hand, many teams like DOM, BUL, CUB, SLO brought their main players (the ones that are eligible to play in this tournament). This means trainers consider this tournaments as important. Previously Serbia played U23 qualification tournament with some players who also plays in senior team such as Mirkoviç, Milenkoviç, Lazoviç and Koçic (only Boskoviç was missing) and they lost the qualification tournament, that's why they are not participating. ;) In that qualification, Poland played with many players part of their senior team, including Smarzek, do you think she got demoted or failed to solidify her spot in her senior team? :rolleyes: Only Italy was with a younger team but it was again their choice. All in all, you can see that trainers put effort to be able to qualify to this tournament and the qualified teams also brought most of their main players among the "eligible" ones. You are belittling this tournament probably as a contra-attack to my opinion on WGCC, which is very childish. :aww:

494

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 11:30am

Frankly speaking. Zhu Ting's achievement alone is bigger than Tukish national​ team history. :rolll:

495

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 11:38am

China won u23 titile back in 2013 and u know what? None of them made it to Rio. None of them made it to the starting line up. Its just how Chinese see it as a non-important tournament. Its a fact not an opinion. Its not a big deal how European​s called WGCC is meaningless. Its what China, Brazil and USA think that matters. We fight​ against​ best teams and we won so we are just fine.

beri

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Posts: 962

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496

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 1:00pm

Frankly speaking. Zhu Ting's achievement alone is bigger than Tukish national​ team history. :rolll:


I am also quoting the other thing you said
What is even your point? Why talk in that degrading manner, why provoke people? What are you trying to achieve by saying this. I already asked the chinese users to stop this convo since we just don't and can't agree. Yet you are still here :wall: I already made my point and gave arguments, you don't have to agree with me however I literally don't see anyone here comparing Turkish NT with Chinese NT except you. So I am asking you one more time to cut it while we can.


To other users who have moved on we were talking about Zhu and China. I know Zhu is a powerhouse and also know volleyball is a team sport (since I play it) and I already expressed that I don't think China will have the same fate ad Korea. China is completely a powerhouse with not only Zhu but everyone being exceptionally good. Still like especially in some tournaments like WGP Zhu was overused imo (whenever she was on court).

jetmasters

shoryuken

Posts: 178

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498

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 7:28pm

Ok, do you want a sticker now?
At least try to defend your point of view instead of sarcasm. This tournament doesn't even have the best U23 players from top teams. It is for those who got demoted or failed to solidify their spot in their respective national teams to make an impression for future selection. Possibly the best generation in 2013 U20 WC which includes Zhu, Boskovic, and Gabi didn't even play in this event because they already proven to be A list members. Everyone else here are just unproven so not sure why you keep exaggerating their greatness without any substance.

The WGCC keeps getting brought up because teams that earned their place actually brought their best available players, even more so than the WGP. But most Euro supporters, including yourself, keep bringing down its importance and disrespect world class players that actually want to win it just because it doesn't involve your team. You keep saying you can't compare U23 to World, but this logic also means you can't compare continental to World events but you guys insist ECh is more important than meaningless WGCC and even WC. It totally contradicts your argument and shows your bias. If the U23 is so important, then why spend more time here instead of the dedicated thread? :rolll:

Neither Zhu nor Gabi can play in this tournament since only 1995 and younger generations are allowed to play. The only players younger than 23 among BRA's last GP roster are Drussyla and Edinara, both of them are playing in this tournament and they couldn't even manage to reach semis in this tournament. Same with Zhu, she was born in 1994 so she is not eligible to play in this tournament but Wang Yunlu, Meizi Gong and Song Meili are, so they are with the team. Of course Zhang Changning and Yuan Xinyue were also eligible but it is CHN's choice not to bring those players (previously Turkey didn't let Hande Baladin play in U20 WCh). On the other hand, many teams like DOM, BUL, CUB, SLO brought their main players (the ones that are eligible to play in this tournament). This means trainers consider this tournaments as important. Previously Serbia played U23 qualification tournament with some players who also plays in senior team such as Mirkoviç, Milenkoviç, Lazoviç and Koçic (only Boskoviç was missing) and they lost the qualification tournament, that's why they are not participating. ;) In that qualification, Poland played with many players part of their senior team, including Smarzek, do you think she got demoted or failed to solidify her spot in her senior team? :rolleyes: Only Italy was with a younger team but it was again their choice. All in all, you can see that trainers put effort to be able to qualify to this tournament and the qualified teams also brought most of their main players among the "eligible" ones. You are belittling this tournament probably as a contra-attack to my opinion on WGCC, which is very childish. :aww:
Why try so hard to make an irrelevant tournament important? Who is the childish one here by belittling a world tournament like the WGCC? Why get so worked up because of just me that thinks this U23 is meaningless? :lol:

jetmasters

shoryuken

Posts: 178

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499

Sunday, September 17th 2017, 7:39pm

And here you are still being :offtopic: This conversation is stupid and more meaningless then U23 and WGCC combined :lol: lets just agree to disagree?

On-topic: I was criticizing Zhu a lot last season but I have to say she is really starting her road to being a legend. Only thing is I hope it is not affecting the rest of the China players since all sets are to Zhu and she even covers a lot of reception lately. I can already see some players losing confidence and dedication. China although ofc much better can face a similar to what Korea did. If Zhu once slows down it can make the team collapse but I don't see this hapenning either since China has a loads of talents to work with.
No problem at all. Any discussion is fine.

Personally I don't really care what people say about Zhu as long they back up their claims. Only thing I hope for is that another consistent scorer can back up Zhu which will make it a lot easier. The team did better in the WGCC but that was just a small sample. We will find out at 2018 WCh which will be the toughest for China to win since they have not won it in over 30 years.

Good fortunes with your team.

samsara

enthusiast

  • "samsara" is male

Posts: 675

Favourite Team: Chinese NT (W)

Favourite Players: Zhu Ting, Zhang Changning, Yuan Xinyue, Xu Yunli, Yan Ni, Zeng Chunlei, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Hui Ruoqi, Gong Xiangyu, Liu Xiaotong, Lin Li

Location: ASIA

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500

Monday, September 18th 2017, 8:13am

And here you are still being :offtopic: This conversation is stupid and more meaningless then U23 and WGCC combined :lol: lets just agree to disagree?

On-topic: I was criticizing Zhu a lot last season but I have to say she is really starting her road to being a legend. Only thing is I hope it is not affecting the rest of the China players since all sets are to Zhu and she even covers a lot of reception lately. I can already see some players losing confidence and dedication. China although ofc much better can face a similar to what Korea did. If Zhu once slows down it can make the team collapse but I don't see this hapenning either since China has a loads of talents to work with.

@Beri, just feel the urge to jump in regarding your judgement on Zhu since there's some interesting posts on that in the WGCC thread. I couldn't insert the quotes nicely here but have to copy-paste manually :)

@Matthias at Post #289 Friday, September 8th 2017, 4:55pm at the WGCC Thread did write interesting expositions about this matter. Just read the quotes here.

Matthias - Post #289

Quoted

Russia is once again facing the same problem as in the last years: Kosheleva and Goncharova are their best individual players, but with them on court, everyone else plays worse :white:

In WGP Russia didn't get good results but their MBs did a great job, also used well by Filishtinskaya, thanks to an overall solid reception. With Kosheleva on court it's clear that the other OH has to be a defensive specialist who can cover the whole court together with the libero to keep Kosheleva out of reception. That explains the presence of Frolova who in terms of hitting must be the weakest player ever in Russian NT, but in all fairness to her, she gets the job in passing done well enough. Better than Shcherban and Parubets obviously, otherwise she wouldn't be on court (yes, I already see another comment coming about every 70 year old person in the world being absolutely unable to think reasonably :whistle: ).

In today's match Kosheleva and Goncharova attacked 59 and 49 balls of Russia's 155 :aww: IMO they're not going to get very far with that, especially not when the other OH is almost like a 2nd libero. But then, Serbia is not much different either with their reliance on Boskovic and Mihajlovic. Just that those two nowadays seem stronger than the Russian duo...


Then my responding post there to that Matthias' one (Post #295):

Quoted

I wanna hear your analysis on the CHN team that's obviously relying much on Zhu Ting... isn't the CHN team on the same path as the SRB???

And if I switch my focus to the BRA team they also have the backbone on Tandara & Natalia... what's their differences than the SRB and CHN?

Even ITA has Egonu, Folie and Chirichella... and if these three key players are taken out the team will be limp.

Thus my basic understanding: every Top team has its own Key players, mostly two to three players, at any time these key players are absent, the team won't be the same one again, they will be limp when facing with the other top contenders or peer competitors.


Then finally the Matthias' further explanation (Post #299):

Quoted

As for Kosheleva and Goncharova: the thing is that they should not be judged by their performance in this tournament. Whether rdbfabio likes it or not, Russia's goal is ECH and their training is planned towards that, so right now they are in the middle of preparation but have to play 5 matches. I'm sure they do a lot of weights besides playing the matches, so of course none of their players are in top shape right now. I'm sure Russia will show up in a much better shape in two weeks.

As for the reliance on key players: the main difference for me is the number of balls attacked by the players. As I pointed out, Goncharova and Kosheleva today carried about 2/3 of the team's offense which does not happen in China/Brazil/Italy with their key players. Sure Zhu Ting will get the balls at the end of close sets and tie-breaks, but other than that China/Brazil/Italy play varied attacks. Serbian setters tend to overuse Mihajlovic and Boskovic despite having great middles but Terzic said he was going to change that, we'll see in ECH as well...


I just wanna point out that Matthias' explanations are more accurate to depict the situation among the teams incl. on Zhu, at least IMO.

"The majority of men are not capable of thinking, but only of believing and are not accessible to reason but only to authority." -­ Arthur Schopenhauer

This post has been edited 2 times, last edit by "samsara" (Sep 18th 2017, 8:32am)


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