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141

Monday, June 26th 2017, 3:27am

Not particularly high on Han Wu. At the very least it would help if she could break into her senior squad, she's already 19.

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142

Monday, June 26th 2017, 4:49am

19 is young. Ding Xia didn't make her senior team until 2014, at the age of 24. She made the A team in 2015. She was a backup setter in the junior team. Wu Han's skill set reminds me of a shorter Hui Ruoqi.

143

Monday, June 26th 2017, 11:33am

But Ding is more the exception than the rule. Zhang, Zhu, Gong, Yuan, Xu they were all there by 18-19, Hui even earlier.


Even if she did remind me of Hui she's around 10 cm shorter, at least 10 cm less on the wingspan, and has a much lower vertical jump than Hui. An athlete like Gong may be shorter, only 186, but she has incredible athleticism, a freak vertical, explosive, incredibly powerful, Han doesn't really have that. She is more talented than Qian per say but I don't know that she tops out a better player than say Li Jing. Perhaps if she were 192 cm the conversation would be much different, but we'll see.

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144

Monday, June 26th 2017, 5:58pm

Yan Ni was even older when she made the A team in 2015. There are plenty of young players that made the senior team but also many who didn't get to play the main competitions. Age is not a problem.

Wu Han's physical disadvantage is her height as previously stated. However, if she has the skills, then there are plenty of opportunities for her to make it into the senior team. Wang Huimin managed to make the A team in 2014 being 1 cm taller. Lang Ping overall picks skills over anything else. She chose Wei Qiu with 2 bummed knees over Shen Jingsi and an inexperienced Gong Xiangyu over Zeng Chunlei for Rio because both have better skills.

In regard to skills, Wu's biggest obstacle is killing the ball over tall block. If she can manage to do that, then making the A team is no problem. Li Jing is the least of her worries as we might not see Li again if she fails to impress at this year's WGP. Wu also needs to improve her blocking. Her measurements are not ideal but who knows how much she has improved in 2 years. Best of luck to her.

145

Monday, June 26th 2017, 9:31pm

I read Yan Ni here was part of the 05-06 CVL championship team. But even so, a player like Ding or Yan is just a role player off the bench. Starters, stars like the others and also Wei Quiyue made their club senior teams very early.

Well if you bring Wang Huimin into the mix you might as well mention Zhang Lei who played before that and was 2 cm shorter. They were replaced in their prime of their careers by superior athletes though. Lang Ping was 100% correct to choose Gong over Zeng, Gong is the better player. However, at this point, Gong really only has one move, that's a hard, downward spike. She's a freak athlete, very explosive, very powerful, but right now her technique is actually very limited. Zeng is more "skilled", she has a better top-spin shot and she can put more side-spin on her spikes as well or just a touch shot. Lang Ping went with the more athletic player and that decision paid off. That's what I don't really see from Wu Han. She is a good athlete, but not a freak athlete. And she's short.

What I meant by Li Jing was does Wu Han have potential to be better than Li Jing some day, because if she turns out to be an athlete like Li Jing she will be a very good club player but maybe not much more. I definitely hope the best for her, I just have a hard time sharing the anticipation.

From the BRICS games, Chen Peiyan didn't look bad but didn't stand out much either, she's 18 so she should at least try to make the Guandgong Senior team this upcoming year.

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146

Monday, June 26th 2017, 10:24pm

Doesn't matter if your a bench player or starter, age doesnt matter. Yan Ni and Ding Xia were clutch throughout the playoffs in Rio. The only star was Zhu Ting. The rest were solid role players. Even if Wu Han won't become a starter, she still can contribute as a backup.

The players from Wei's and Hui's generation have already declined when Lang Ping took over. That's why China had its worst result in the Asian Championships in 2013. That was why Lang Ping chose young and inexperienced players over them because of better skills. Gong can block and kill better than Zeng. Serve and receive I would say they are not much different. As long as Wu Han improve her attacking and blocking, she has a chance to make the senior team because her other skills set are already solid. You don't have to be super athletic to be good. Yan Ni is not that athletic but she is a clutch blocker. It all comes down to skills but being super athletic will definitely help.

Wu Han defensive skills are already better than Li Jing imo. Li Jing has better attacking because of her experience but she is not clutch. She seems to only kill balls that are set perfectly to her. She is also slow for her height. Both are different types of players imo. China needs more OH because the ones from Montreux aren't very convincing. Hopefully Wu Han is better if she makes the senior team because her skills set and attitude are better imo.

147

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 12:11am

I finally realized you didn't comprehend my initial point. My initial word was that Han hasn't made her Club team's senior side, Jiangsu Zenith Steel something. Yan Ni was playing senior volleyball as far back as when she was something like 17-18. Ding Xia I'm not sure about but I'm sure she didn't only make her senior club side when she was 24.

However, I do want to take the opportunity to talk Rio because I think the most common misconception is that Lang Ping coached the perfect tournament and Zhu Ting was the only star and everyone else just rode along. China finished the preliminary rounds in 7th place, just barely making the final playoff and seeded against top seed Brazil. They lost to Netherlands, and got mercilessly wiped out by Serbia. Many will forget, but Lang Ping coached both of those games. Zhu Ting played both of those games. They still lost, and badly. Lang Ping had tried everything and nothing worked.


The turning point was in the USA game when Lang Ping finally put away Yan Ni and brought in Hui Ruoqi. She was the second best scorer behind Zhu Ting in the USA game, and then in the game against the Netherlands, and then in the game against Serbia. More than that, she was an unstoppable force defensively, leading the team in serve receptions and consistently a leader in digs and dig receptions as well. She even shared in the passing effort, and went above and beyond the call of duty there. She was the difference between losing to Netherlands and getting wiped out by Serbia and beating both those teams comfortably 3-1, the difference between finishing 7th and finishing 1st. Hui for me is no doubt a star, and her CVL title only reinforces that. Along the way of course there were other big performances. Zhang came up huge in the Brazil game with a monster game. The girls I call the "Freak 4" (Zhu, Hui, Zhang, Gong) accounted for 182 of the team's 278 points in the last 4 games.


Both are not super athletic but at least Yan Ni has the benefit of being 192cm. Not every athlete has to be super athletic, Xu Yunli for example definitely is not, but to be both short and not super athletic is a bit much to overcome. Han should set her first goal to consistently make and play for the Senior Team at Jiangsu. As I said before though that will be a very hard task because Jiangsu already have Hui, Zhang, and Gong. Beyond that will have to be seen.



I think Tomen is right to think first about the MBs. Especially if Xu Yunli has to be replaced that will be the biggest item. Yang Hanyu wasn't very good in the BRICS tournament.

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148

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 2:53am

Gong xiangyu actually is 188 cm.

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149

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 3:28am

Honestly, China didn't beat Serbia. Serbia beaten themselves to death with their errors.

That is the difference.

China knows they can win as long as they can limit their errors especially on the serve. Their block is good enough to limit Serbia's offense. They just have to be in it for the long haul which seems to be the problem with Serbia.

Serbia has always been that high reward-high risk. China's game is conservative but is flexible enough to compliment Zhu Ting's play. Lang Ping made that possible by having good role players surround her. Everyone can replace each other when they are struggling except Zhu.

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150

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 3:50am

You made your points of Wu Han not being tall enough, not athletic enough, and about her age that will be obstacles for her making into the senior team. You never said anything about her playing in the senior club level or I must have missed it somewhere. Everyone was talking about her making the senior national team. Even the thread is Chinese NT. I apologize if there is confusion.

My point is that age, height, and athleticism is not all that matters in a player. Skills are the most important part. I keep emphasizing those with examples of players that fit those criteria in my previous posts.

In regards to Rio, I am not sure what your point is about China vs USA game. China still lost. Win or lose, China have already qualified for playoffs and would still be 4th place. The whole team didn't play well during prelims. Hui was bad offensively against Brazil but Liu Xiaotong saved the day replacing her. Hui redeemed herself against Netherlands and played well against Serbia. Every player had their clutch moments but Zhu was the only star that carried the team offensively in every game. She scored 179 points while the next closest was Xun Yunli, a middle blocker, with 59. Zhang scored 56, Yuan with 50 and Hui with 48. This meant that other hitters were not doing their jobs scoring when your middle blockers ranked 2nd and 4th offensively. If you break that down to playoffs, Hui did better with 26, Xun with 24, Zhang with 21, Yuan with 18, while a sparingly used Yan Ni got 16. Zhu lead the way with 86, 3 times more than the next closest scorer. So Hui scored 22 points total in prelims. It only meant she did worst in the prelims so the USA game had zero impact whatsoever. In the end, the only player with monster games was Zhu Ting.

On defense, I am not sure why you claimed Hui was best at digging and reception. She was only the best at serving for the team. Lin led the team in digs and Zhu came in second. Zhu was the best at reception and Lin was second for the team. Zhu was top ranked in almost every category for the semifinalists except for serving. She was the only star and Lin Li was the best defensive player for China as she was rewarded the best libero. The rest of the team were clutch during crunch time and were very solid supporting players. Zhu was a beast on offense and played good defense even though she is not known for that.

In regards to Lang Ping, I think she is an underrated coach. She led a Chinese team to silvers at Worlds and Olympics with a no-star team against the great Cuban team of the 90s. Then again silver with USA in 2008 Olympics with less talents than the 2012 and 2016 USA teams. Finally she won 2016 with an inexperienced and young team with 3 injured veterans, Wei with 2 bummed knees, Hui with heart condition, and Xu with ankle problems that forced her out almost 2 years. They got beaten badly in the prelims but managed to pull through against all odds, beating 2 time defending champs Brazil at their hostile home turf and went on to win the gold. Chinese fans were not expecting gold and definitely were expecting a loss against Brazil after a terrible prelim round. Lang Ping did exceptional motivating the team and was great with subs that changed the games momentum during playoffs. All the players praised her as well as the commentators. So I am not sure why you don't think Lang Ping is a good coach. It was Lang Ping that gave Ding Xia and Yan Ni chances to shine who both were overlooked and neglected by other coaches during their junior days as well as on B teams.

Back to Wu Han, she just needs to improve her offensive skills as I think her skills set is very solid already for defense and she has a great attitude on court. Not everyone will be like Zhu or Boskovic, young, tall, and super athletic. Those are the rarest of talents. I wish Wu Han the best of luck in making the senior team.

151

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 6:35am

My very first words

Quoted

Not particularly high on Han Wu. At the very least it would help if she could break into her senior squad, she's already 19.
[list][/list]I can see where there might be confusion, my bad. Her is the tipoff word because it implies individual circumstance as opposed to a universal nature but I really should have been a lot more clear, too much time speaking the lingo of HFboards will do that to you.

Those players are all completely irrelevant to Wu Han. Gong is one of the girls I call the "Four Freaks", athletically she is a real specimen with probably the best unassisted vertical on the team, and she's ~4 cm taller. Yan Ni is about 10 cm taller and she's a MB so she doesn't need to be as explosive. Ding Xia doesn't need to be explosive or tall as she's a setter, and even she has a crazy vert and explosiveness. Wu Han would make a very tall libero but the point is she's not trying to be a libero, she's trying to be a Wing Spiker.

As far as defensive stats go we were talking about per game stats and down the stretch stats, stats for games where Hui actually played. Just so you are aware, per game stats are always more important than cumulative stats as cumulative stats penalize players for not playing and thus are not helpful for evaluating efficiency or projected performance. Hui vs NED led the team in digs (9) and was second in receptions (6) to Wei, she led the team in Excellents (11) and serve receptions (18), and was second among front row athletes in sets (3). Against Serbia she was second in receptions with 8, despite only 1 dig, tied for the lead among front row athletes in sets (3), and again led the team in service reception excellents (11) and service receptions (13 ). Against the USA she tied for the lead in digs with 7, but Lin had 9 faults and Hui had only 3. She had 3 receptions, on service she was second in excellents and second as well in service receptions. Even in the Brazil game, her worst defensive game, she recorded a higher excellent service reception rate than Liu did in the very same game. Her impact was also seen on the overall scoresheet where the team was able to defeat teams that had beaten and thrashed them just days before, and the only variable changed was her. Your cumulative stats don't amount to anything because they penalize players for not playing more games, as opposed to analyzing in game performance. When she was on the court, she was easily the second best player offensively to only Zhu Ting and the second best player defensively to only the libero who won the tournament's best libero honor. She was rarely on the court for the first 4 games of the tournament, which is what I'll go into next.

Next, Jenny Lang Ping. She's not underrated, some consider her the best coach alive. My point is that she is human. She started the tournament sitting Hui, they got their butts kicked. She put Hui in, things turned around. A good coach can make adjustments and realize when something is clearly wrong or not working. Jenny Lang Ping is (better than) a good coach. She was wrong to sit Hui in the start of the tournament. She fixed that. You don't need to defend her initial decision because she herself reversed that decision and in the end went ride-or-die with Hui. I don't know where you think I think she's a bad coach. Of course she's not. I've praised many of her decisions, like choosing Gong over Zeng, but one of the most crucial things for a coach to be able to do is to adjust. She tried without Hui. It didn't work, she adjusted. She brought out Hui against Brazil, Hui had probably one of the worst games I've seen her in, she adjusted by pulling Hui and went back to something similar to in the 2016 Grand Prix. They won. She adjusted straight back to Hui for the Netherlands game, why? Because they're not interchangeable parts, Hui is the better player by far and she proved that. If they were interchangeable parts, they wouldn't have gotten wiped out by Serbia in the prelims, a game where Liu played and was atrocious. An example of a bad Coach, say the much maligned Karch Kiraly, doesn't recognize his mistakes, and as a result never fixes them.

About Wu Han, I hope the best for her too. However, I want to see her in the CVL before I'd think about her taking a rotation spot from Zhu, Hui, Zhang, Gong, or Yang and she hasn't gotten there yet.

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "GianLucaBarbei" (Jun 27th 2017, 6:52am)


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152

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 7:33am

Hui had a heart condition. JLP had to be careful about her. She probably didn't want to overload her so early on in some unimportant matches in the preliminary phase or she might not be able to make it to the finish line.

Plus Hui in the most difficult match of China which was Brazil, she disappeared like a ghost so it's not all about her. She still got to thank Zhang and Liu X. for being able to keep up the brazilians which made the victory possible.

153

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 8:57am

@Rains of Castamere

My bad you're right, it was Liu Xiaotong that she replaced. I guess I'm one of rbdfabio's ignorant commenters
:lol:

I prefer Yuan to Yan because...taller...faster...jumps higher...ok you get the point :lol: but in that case she was more effective than Yuan.


You think of everything through the Brazil game though, and I'd encourage a slightly wider view. Even before the tournament there was a long transition period which, had Lang Ping not undergone it, China would never even be a contender. She dropped some veterans athletes (some more voluntarily than others I'm sure) still perhaps in their prime and replaced them with a lot of raw, physical talent. That took guts, but Lang Ping has them. You also may be right about the heart condition being the reason they held off on bringing her in.


Against Serbia we were significantly longer and quicker (despite being longer) at basically every position so of course the blocking advantage was natural. It comes with the territory of being more athletically gifted that your opponents have to take extra risks to level the playing field.


The problem I have with the zero stars idea or the interchangeable parts idea is that these players who are being described as role players are stars in their own right playing in a very straight up, old school system where the attack is led by arguably the best player on earth. Calling them interchangeable parts doesn't demonstrates enough nuance. I don't know if anyone here follows basketball, but the argument is akin to taking the Golden State Warriors NBA Championship, declaring that KD is a star and the others like Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, and Draymond Green are not also stars, just role players or interchangeable parts. Before Lang Ping adjusted to bring back Hui the team was bad, period. Even once she did bring back Hui , Hui wasn't always good (naturally) and there were star caliber performances put out by Zhang Changning (vs. Brazil) and Lin Li. Hui Ruoqi and Liu Xiaotong are no more interchangeable than Steph Curry and Shaun Livingston. The Warriors pulled through with good performances from Livingston when Curry was struggling but that doesn't make them in any way interchangeable or equal. When Zhang struggled against Serbia Lang Ping brought in Yang Fangxu. Still, they're no more equal than Draymond Green and David West.


Why I get so passionate about this is that I'm really proud of a lot of the girls, because they're warriors. I don't think the word clutch does them justice because I feel the word clutch implies overperforming. Some of these girls were just stars doing what they do best when they're called upon to do it. I don't think the word role-player does them justice because being able to spike, serve, block, dig, set, and receive against the best is not a role. They absolutely would not have been able to win the gold without Jenny Lang Ping, or without Zhu Ting. However, I feel the data and the empirical evidence is clear as well, they would not have been able to win gold without Hui Ruoqi and probably not without Lin Li, Zhang Changning, or Xu Yunli. If you permanently replace Hui with Liu, Zhang with Yang, Xu with Yan, and Li with me you basically have Team South Korea. But all the media coverage and the fan coverage immediately afterwards was just on Zhu Ting and Lang Ping, it didn't leave a great taste in my mouth.


Chinese volleyball is where Brazilian volleyball was in 08 when you had Fabiana, Sheilla, Thaisa, and I think it's really exciting. The big focus has to be finding a backup MB to Yuan because both Xu Yunli and Yan Ni are getting up there.

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154

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 3:20pm


In regards to Rio, I am not sure what your point is about China vs USA game. China still lost. Win or lose, China have already qualified for playoffs and would still be 4th place. The whole team didn't play well during prelims. Hui was bad offensively against Brazil but Liu Xiaotong saved the day replacing her. Hui redeemed herself against Netherlands and played well against Serbia. Every player had their clutch moments but Zhu was the only star that carried the team offensively in every game. She scored 179 points while the next closest was Xun Yunli, a middle blocker, with 59. Zhang scored 56, Yuan with 50 and Hui with 48. This meant that other hitters were not doing their jobs scoring when your middle blockers ranked 2nd and 4th offensively. If you break that down to playoffs, Hui did better with 26, Xun with 24, Zhang with 21, Yuan with 18, while a sparingly used Yan Ni got 16. Zhu lead the way with 86, 3 times more than the next closest scorer. So Hui scored 22 points total in prelims. It only meant she did worst in the prelims so the USA game had zero impact whatsoever. In the end, the only player with monster games was Zhu Ting.

On defense, I am not sure why you claimed Hui was best at digging and reception. She was only the best at serving for the team. Lin led the team in digs and Zhu came in second. Zhu was the best at reception and Lin was second for the team. Zhu was top ranked in almost every category for the semifinalists except for serving. She was the only star and Lin Li was the best defensive player for China as she was rewarded the best libero. The rest of the team were clutch during crunch time and were very solid supporting players. Zhu was a beast on offense and played good defense even though she is not known for that.



:obey:

Does anyone believe that without ZHU China would won the gold medal in Rio?
"Zhu Ting arrives" :super:

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155

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 3:55pm

gives the photo of present players in the training camp:
the players in red

back: Gong Xiang-yu, Wang Yuan-yuan, Gao Yi, Yuan Xin-yue, Zhang Chang-ning, Wang Yun-lu, Liu Xiao-tong
front: Lin Li, Ding Xia, Li Jing, Zheng Yi-xin, Qian Jing-wen, Yao Di, Wang Meng-jie
the coaches in white
L2: Yuan Ling-xi (Wei Qiu-yue's ... fiance, assistant coach)
L3: Yuan Zhi (assistant coach)
L4: An Jia-jie (head coach)
tomen has attached the following image:
  • 51144fc2d562853500f528989aef76c6a7ef6333.jpg
My favourite roster of Chinese
male NT:
S - Li Run-ming, Zhan Guo-jun
OP - Dai Qing-yao, Jiang Chuan
OH - Ji Dao-shuai, Xia Run-tao, Liu Li-bin, Zhang Chen
MB - Zhang Zhe-jia, Chen Long-hai, Geng Xin
L - Ren Qi

female NT:
S - Ding Xia, Yao Di
OP - Gong Xiang-yu, Zhang Chang-ning
OH - Hui Ruo-qi, Zhu Ting, Liu Xiao-tong, Li Jing
MB - Yuan Xin-yue, Yan Ni, Xu Yun-li
L - Lin Li

My avatar is Jiang Chuan. I hope more persons love him.

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156

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 5:19pm

@GianLucaBarbei

Let's all hope Wu Han the best in her career.

Back to Rio, China went 2-2 with Hui from bench and 0-1 with her starting in group stage. So there was no turning point by starting Hui because China still lost. She was 1/9 with 4 faults (0%eff), 0 digs, and 1 excellent reception against Brazil as a starter and had Lang Ping kept her in, China would have been swept by Brazil 3-0 and the rest would be history. The turning point for China was replacing her with Liu and China came from behind in crunch time to win the second set, then the match. Also props to Wei replacing Ding as the setter. By beating Brazil, China turned its destiny around after a bad group stage showing.

Stats can be used in many ways to assess a player. Hui was used sparingly in group stage due to her heart condition as Lang wanted to save her strength for the playoffs. You can nitpicked stats all you want but the sheets only showed Hui was the best digger for 1 game when she started. Even Zhu had better excellent receptions in the playoffs than Hui. If you break it down to minutes per game, Yan Ni would be the best as she produced the most with the least minutes played. But in reality, what actually happened matters. Hui was never the best digger or receiver when she started. Her offense was as good as the rest of the supporting players. Lin was the best in defense. Even Zhu was better in some games. The rest of the team did their part as well as Hui did while having a lesser role on both offense and defense. Also forgot to mention blocking defense. It took Brankica out of the game which to me was the turning point for China in the final. Everyone did good supporting Zhu. Remember, China won the World Cup without Hui. Zhu was the star at Rio while her teammates did equally good supporting her.

157

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 7:43pm

Wow, I take a couple days off and this normally quiet forum explodes. Lots of good conversation. I think I may have started this with a couple fanboy posts about WU Han. :win:

So many points to consider, forgive me if it's bad form to pull a quote from two pages back (or from the other thread) and comment on it here. I may do that as I catch up. And/but I'll resist the temptation to go all Warriors Basketball analogy on ya'll (for a while).

To get this out of the way first: I think WU Han could distinguish herself from her taller counterparts by studying martial arts and becoming a better defensive player. As far as I can tell, nobody (beyond the liberos) on China plays defense, and by 'defense' I mean everything that happens if you don't make a block. (I understand that for many/most, blocking is defense). Defense is a problem when you're that big and far from the floor. I think WU's upside is ... well ... she has a good swing but so do a lot of them. China doesn't seem to do a lot of back-court attacking, so she should work on that as a distinguisher. In the few games I've seen her play, she seems to play in the back court a lot, for an attacker--without getting sets. I have no idea why it seems like that. Maybe it's not true. But finally, totally subjectively, she just looks hungry and smart. When I see her waiting for a serve to happen, she looks like she's playing chess. Going through a database of what has already happened in the game and plugging it into what is likely to happen. A lot of players look like they are just waiting for the serve to happen, and then hoping for the best. Laugh at me all you want but something has to show the boss why you're worth looking at. And that's why I think martial arts would help her. Study the body, and it's language. Discipline and quickness. (Now you know why I like the Japanese team).

My usual disclaimer: Rio was the first volleyball I ever watched, so I don't know much. And I don't look at, or give that much care to, statistics (more on that later--and whether good/best accolades should come from stats). I watched the Rio games because many of my friends here are Chinese, who also don't indulge VB deep enough to look at statistics. Sitting around the dramatic arc of the Rio games with them was pretty fun. They were all about Zhu Ting. It was actually scary at the end of the Serbia game when Zhu (probably) broke one of the fingers of the setter, and then a couple plays later, when she was still in tears about it, smashed her in the face and rolled her eyes when the girl was lying there crying. It was like out of the Godfather. Don't mess with the family and take out the important link. But I digress.

I'm not going to go read a bunch of paperwork, and since I can't re-watch the Rio games because of, you know, nonsense, forgive me if I get some facts wrong. It's all just mythology at this point.

The players that jumped out at me for China were: Hui, Zhang Changning, and Xu Yunli, because they looked like the players whose radius of awareness extended the furthest from their own bodies. Zhu just looked like a Godzilla. (Now that I've seen a lot more of her, I imagine she's one of the smartest vb players out there). I really really liked Xu Yunli, and I love the quick set/smash that MBs get to do. I think Zhang is a monster--and as I wrote way back when, WU Han looks like she could be Changning's little sister. Actually, if Hui and Zhang got married and had a baby, it would be Wu Han. As I recall, Zhang didn't play the last set against Serbia until the very last Championship winning serve! Yay Changning! I kept saying "she's only 21, she's only 21!" without realizing she was surrounded by a bunch of other 21 year olds, more or less. Zhang was not popular with my friends. I think she has an upstart reputation, or something. Hui, on the other hand was very popular. My friends kept talking about this player who wasn't playing much. I agree with whomever made the point that Hui changed the dynamic when she started playing. She has "veteran" written all over her. I also agree, now that I know a little more about her, and have watched her more, that it would probably have been a bad idea to have played her a lot from the beginning. She doesn't strike me as particularly athletic, she even looks a little lazy to me, but she does seem smart, and I think she played very well in the Rio games. But as a Japan fan, I've watched the 2012 Quarterfinal game several times, and for me, it was Hui who was the weak link. She boinked the game losing serve and watched too many balls NOT go out of bounds because she was not athletic enough or unlazy enough to go after them--which is why it doesn't matter to me that she might have been the high scorer of the match, or had the best excellent receive ratio (or whatever that is), because in a game where the whole freaking thing was only TWO points difference, those two plays you didn't go after the ball cost you the whole banana.

Well, I'm rambling, and have to get back to work. I don't mean to end on a Hui Diss. I do like her. I wish I had been able to interact with these threads in real time. They provoked a lot of thought. Warning: I'll be back! :rolll:

Like WU Han, I can't grow taller. I can't learn and grow my knowledge of vb from having played it for a number of years, as I imagine many here have done. There's a world of difference, in my experience, between the way that people who play a sport, watch it, and the way that people who don't play the sport, watch it.
...

Posted by ZodiacTTT: "Sidenote: Ugly japs trying to cheat in the set 2 is just so typical of them :down:" Reported as inappropriate but condoned by moderators who enjoy watching grumpy old men disrespect young women. Typical.

158

Tuesday, June 27th 2017, 10:57pm

The 2-2 wins were against Italy and Puerto Rico. The loss was against the then #1 Ranked USA. There is a huge logical false equivalence, as well as a basically just taking a chainsaw to the idea of isolating variables. Also, speaking of the turning point.The turning point argument is based from a tactical standpoint, not a results standpoint, though the tactical change led to the eventual result. Arguing that because the tactical turning point was meaningless because did not immediately manifest a result is a really silly thing to do. The only "turning point" in the Brazil match was for giddy and emotional fans, because as the logical progression would follow Lang Ping did not continue that strategy throughout the second round of the playoff but instead continued with the strategy from the actual turning point which was the one I labeled. Even within the Brazil game the Brazilian fan just here labeled Yan Ni's entrance as the turning point by mitigating Sheilla. However, what we both agree on is that the real second MVP of the Brazil game was Zhang, because she was the one who took over both the offensive and defensive responsibilities from Hui, not Liu. Your Hui Ruoqi heart condition argument makes her sound like a silver bullet which really only backs up my claim. Also, breaking down to minutes? Volleyball isn't even a timed sport. I know what you're trying to get at with detailed statistics but that assessment is really neither here nor there.

Then the continued attempts to purport equal support. They're grotesque at best. Liu Xiaotong got 2 points against Serbia in the first go around. Hui got 13 in the second. They lost the first 0-3 won the second 3-1. I don't know how for you that is equal support, especially considering Liu had 8 offensive faults alone in that game. The argument is tone-deaf, it has zero nuance. Statistically a team can win or reach a similar outcome and players perform at different levels of effectiveness and efficiency than each other. Just like when Zhang struggled and Yang was brought on to replace her. The fact that they won does not set all things equal, Yang in no way and at no point was equivalent to Zhang. I can throw in numbers there too. Zhang took over for Hui when Hui was struggling. Hui took over for Zhang when Zhang was struggling. Liu and Yang, obviously significantly inferior players, didn't play much of a role other than a stop-gap and a placeholder to allow the other member of the Freak Four to take over. If Hui wasn't there this run stops against the Netherlands. If Zhang wasn't there this run stops against Brazil. If you take voluntarily take out one member, say Hui, when Zhang begins to struggle, then you have the Serbia game. Not that this team cannot prevail in a single game without one of these players but we know empirically that there is no way this team could prevail with any consistency without them. Which leads into the 2015 World Cup insinuation. Obviously, with the formatting as it is and the teams that were present, Zhang Changning's big game against Serbia virtually sufficed. Put them in a multi-round playoff against high-level competition and the task becomes far more difficult.


If you're going to be consistent about your "But in reality, what actually happened matters" comment and set statistics aside, bringing back Hui was the the only variable that changed when two losses turned to two wins (see the isolated variables). This isn't to say Hui was the only crucial character, as I mentioned to Rains, Zhang is also a crucial character, so is Li and so is Xu. However, your argument that everyone in the rotation outside of Zhu was equal or performed equally has neither the backing of broad results or isolated statistics.


Meanwhile, I must apologize to Tomen, who was running a nice little thread before I came in and all hell broke loose. Sorry Tomen.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "GianLucaBarbei" (Jun 27th 2017, 11:11pm)


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159

Wednesday, June 28th 2017, 4:48pm

The 2-2 wins were against Italy and Puerto Rico. The loss was against the then #1 Ranked USA. There is a huge logical false equivalence, as well as a basically just taking a chainsaw to the idea of isolating variables. Also, speaking of the turning point.The turning point argument is based from a tactical standpoint, not a results standpoint, though the tactical change led to the eventual result. Arguing that because the tactical turning point was meaningless because did not immediately manifest a result is a really silly thing to do. The only "turning point" in the Brazil match was for giddy and emotional fans, because as the logical progression would follow Lang Ping did not continue that strategy throughout the second round of the playoff but instead continued with the strategy from the actual turning point which was the one I labeled. Even within the Brazil game the Brazilian fan just here labeled Yan Ni's entrance as the turning point by mitigating Sheilla. However, what we both agree on is that the real second MVP of the Brazil game was Zhang, because she was the one who took over both the offensive and defensive responsibilities from Hui, not Liu. Your Hui Ruoqi heart condition argument makes her sound like a silver bullet which really only backs up my claim. Also, breaking down to minutes? Volleyball isn't even a timed sport. I know what you're trying to get at with detailed statistics but that assessment is really neither here nor there.

Then the continued attempts to purport equal support. They're grotesque at best. Liu Xiaotong got 2 points against Serbia in the first go around. Hui got 13 in the second. They lost the first 0-3 won the second 3-1. I don't know how for you that is equal support, especially considering Liu had 8 offensive faults alone in that game. The argument is tone-deaf, it has zero nuance. Statistically a team can win or reach a similar outcome and players perform at different levels of effectiveness and efficiency than each other. Just like when Zhang struggled and Yang was brought on to replace her. The fact that they won does not set all things equal, Yang in no way and at no point was equivalent to Zhang. I can throw in numbers there too. Zhang took over for Hui when Hui was struggling. Hui took over for Zhang when Zhang was struggling. Liu and Yang, obviously significantly inferior players, didn't play much of a role other than a stop-gap and a placeholder to allow the other member of the Freak Four to take over. If Hui wasn't there this run stops against the Netherlands. If Zhang wasn't there this run stops against Brazil. If you take voluntarily take out one member, say Hui, when Zhang begins to struggle, then you have the Serbia game. Not that this team cannot prevail in a single game without one of these players but we know empirically that there is no way this team could prevail with any consistency without them. Which leads into the 2015 World Cup insinuation. Obviously, with the formatting as it is and the teams that were present, Zhang Changning's big game against Serbia virtually sufficed. Put them in a multi-round playoff against high-level competition and the task becomes far more difficult.


If you're going to be consistent about your "But in reality, what actually happened matters" comment and set statistics aside, bringing back Hui was the the only variable that changed when two losses turned to two wins (see the isolated variables). This isn't to say Hui was the only crucial character, as I mentioned to Rains, Zhang is also a crucial character, so is Li and so is Xu. However, your argument that everyone in the rotation outside of Zhu was equal or performed equally has neither the backing of broad results or isolated statistics.


Meanwhile, I must apologize to Tomen, who was running a nice little thread before I came in and all hell broke loose. Sorry Tomen.


That's just fancy words and too convoluting.

In the end, it was more simple than you can imagine.

Preliminary Phase wasn't important.

Liu Xiatong wasn't even a starter in the first serbia game.

If anything the reason for those losses in the preliminary was starting another opposite other than Zeng Chunlei after for too many years. It was going to be a bad ride anyone knew that in the beginning.

160

Wednesday, June 28th 2017, 8:47pm

Quoted

That's just fancy words and too convoluting.
:lol: Always very convenient.

Quoted

In the end, it was more simple than you can imagine. Preliminary Phase wasn't important. Liu Xiatong wasn't even a starter in the first serbia game.
She started the majority of sets...

But eh, we can all believe what we want. Time to put the thread to better use. Finished the BRICS games yesterday but was saving the thread for squabbles. Here's what I noticed.

Yang Hangyu - Pretty underwhelming. Some nice spikes but overall pretty inconsistent and error-prone.

Chen Peiyan - She had some moments and plays a good enough back-court game. When airborne reaches a good apex but needs to get from the surface to the air much faster, and increase hang time. Most important however would be probably like a 40% increase in striking power.

Yang W.J. (#19) - Couldn't find her on the U20 Roster. What to say, she was the best player on the team, but probably not a very high ceiling prospect.

Sun Yan - 2001 born athlete and only played 1 point against the Brazilian U20 but scored a point and here it is. I'm very excited about her. Wish she could start over the current starter, who is a 98 born.
https://youtu.be/x9sGovneEPg

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