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jetmasters

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161

Wednesday, June 28th 2017, 9:53pm

@GianLucaBarbei

You can put it whatever way you want, the fact of the matter Hui was never the turning point for China when she started. What really happened matters. China still lost when she started. She then disappeared in a do or die game against Brazil and Liu Xiaotong had to step in to do her job. She failed miserably when the game was on the line. She was a non factor in helping China to advance in the most important game of the playoffs. She played better the next two games but it was nothing spectacular. She did what she was supposed to do as a starter and secondary scoring option. It was that simple.

The core was always Zhu Ting and the rest of the supporting cast complimented each other. China didn't have a set starting lineup. In each playoff game, when the starting lineup didn't work out, it was the bench that stepped up. Kudos to Lang Ping for adjustments. Zhu stepped up big time in the playoffs averaging 28.6, 10 points more than the 18.6 she had in the prelmins. Zhu Ting also outscored the rest of the OHs/OPs 86 to 72 in the playoffs. She was the only consistent player while the rest complimented each other when starters didnt play well. That was why they were equal in terms of supporting Zhu. They did what they were supposed to do, nothing spectacular. There was only one freak and that was Zhu Ting.

I think you give too much credit for Hui's impact. Never in her career had she been a star in terms of actual results. She never won any individual accolades playing in the Asian Championships. Even lesser talents like Zeng had won best OP and one dimensional player like Wang Yimei got an MVP. While being the ace, China lost to Japan for the first time at the Olympics in London with previous 5-0 record and 15-0 in sets. She was outplayed by shorter, older, and less athletic players Yukiko Ebata and Saorin in scoring and efficiency. Even in club level she never led Jiangsu to a championship being the ace. Zhang and Gong carried Jiangsu this past season to Jiangsu's first championship. Hui has star potential and popularity but that has yet to translate into her game. She is a very good supporting player at the moment.

162

Thursday, June 29th 2017, 2:07am

Quoted

they were equal in terms of supporting Zhu

Quoted

Kudos to Lang Ping for adjustments

Quoted

Zhu was the star at Rio while her teammates did equally good supporting her.
You praise JLP for "adjustments" but then you literally say that basically any adjustments would have been sufficient because all supports were equal. You even note that China didn't have a starting lineup, starting lineups changed from game to game. Do you think they changed at random? By your logic, I could be Jenny Lang Ping. If every support supports Zhu equally, then I could literally pick 5, remember to insert Zhu Ting and I win! Why are you congratulating Lang Ping? What even is there to adjust if every support is equal? Furthermore, if all were equal in their support of Zhu Ting, then each result from Zhu and from the team should have been identical. Now you could argue that you're speaking holistically and from game to game there is nuance but that is a horrible argument because then cumulative statistics should have been equal, game results should have been equal, playing time allotted both cumulative and ideally also on a per game scale should also be equal. I have no problem recognizing that everyone did their part, but equality is a word that will really trip you up here. Whether you argue instantaneous equality or holistic equality the argument doesn't make sense.

You don't ever bother to even remotely isolate variables for a controlled experiment or comparison. A win against the USA for you is probably no different than a win against Puerto Rico if it supports your argument. Lebron James lost to the Warriors, I beat the local schoolchildren at the high school 5 minutes from my house, if we have absolutely no nuance (or common sense) then I'm a winner and Lebron contributed to a loss. The reason I've been comparing the Netherlands and Serbia games to each other is because the variables are as isolated as reasonably possible. Losing to the USA and beating Puerto Rico to any reasonable person have no correlation and are in no way comparable.

Furthermore, you build a strawman and knock it down. The turning point I keep talking about in the USA game was a tactical turning point. I never said JLP inserted Hui and they trounced the USA and beat everyone else easily. I said Jenny Lang Ping changed tactics/personnel. She did. Saying that "well they still lost" is missing the entire argument.


You profess to have a real problem with detailed statistics because you want to focus on what actually happened but a post later you're still using per game stats, averages, cumulative stats etc. Real consistent there. Then you're real interested in what actually happened, not stats, but then ignore the fact that one combination was used. That combination failed. Jenny Lang Ping changed the combination, added Hui as opposed to Liu and Gong. That combination, against the same competition (NED/SRB), succeeded. That's what happened. No stats, not even box scores, just the view from 10000 feet. If you were actually interested in what actually happened, well that's that.

Then you say she had a bad day against Brazil. I really don't have a clue where you're getting at with this. Are you saying she had a bad game therefore she was unessential to the campaign? Are you saying she had a bad game therefore she is suddenly equally essential as all the other players? I feel like this argument is more an appeal to emotion than logic. Zhang was doing poorly in the most important game, the championship game, against Serbia and she was subbed too, is she equal to Yang Fangxu? Were they really equally essential to the eventual victory or do you think without Zhang they still could have won gold?

And please don't misuse the word freak because it is not a word used in performance evaluation.

I don't know if you are trying to set up a strawman where either a player contributed an equal amount to Zhu or an equal amount to everyone else but the former is not my argument and has never been.

Also, along the way you dropped my argument that a team can focus their attack on one star and still feature multiple stars. I think this should be fairly obvious. I brought up the Warriors earlier, I can do another example, maybe soccer since that's an international sport. Alexis Sanchez scored the most goals by double for Arsenal last EPL season and had the most assists as well. I don't believe anyone in their right mind would take that and assume that Mesut Ozil, Olivier Giroud, or Theo Walcott aren't stars, or that they're equal in contribution to say Alex Iwobi. Lewandowski had more than twice as many goals as anyone else on Bayern when they won the Bundesliga last year, I don't know anyone who takes that to mean Arjen Robben or Thomas Mueller or Arturo Vidal are not stars, and contributed no more than say Kingsley Coman. Hell, Dortmund's Auba scored like 4-5x what any of the other Dortmund guys scored and I believe Emre Can is a German NT starter among others. Same with Juve and Higuain, same with Cavani and PSG. A loaded team focusing their offensive attack through one athlete doesn't mean the others aren't worth their salt or are equal. That should be common sense.

Eventually what it's been drawn up to is that I believe there were other standout performers who were essential to the campaign and contributed disproportionate amounts (both statistically and in terms of "what happened") outside of Zhu Ting. You believe they were all the same. I can't convince you, and this thread has better uses, so I'm done. If you need to have the last word feel free to put in the last word.

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "GianLucaBarbei" (Jun 29th 2017, 3:18am)


163

Thursday, June 29th 2017, 6:12am

I'm not sure the Rio games are a Rubiks Cube to be solved. It would still leave the mystery of why the Chinese team is the only one who wear uniforms that change color when they sweat. :drink:
...

Posted by ZodiacTTT: "Sidenote: Ugly japs trying to cheat in the set 2 is just so typical of them :down:" Reported as inappropriate but condoned by moderators who enjoy watching grumpy old men disrespect young women. Typical.

ST2008

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164

Thursday, June 29th 2017, 7:14am

Tomen is losing territory in this thread :rolll:

tomen

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165

Thursday, June 29th 2017, 2:13pm

Zhu Ting and Yang Fang-xu [only for training and not in the wide roster of WGP2017] have joined the training camp.
tomen has attached the following image:
  • 8586d5628535e5dd4cf29a617cc6a7efcf1b6272.jpg
My favourite roster of Chinese
male NT:
S - Li Run-ming, Zhan Guo-jun
OP - Dai Qing-yao, Jiang Chuan
OH - Ji Dao-shuai, Xia Run-tao, Liu Li-bin, Zhang Chen
MB - Zhang Zhe-jia, Chen Long-hai, Geng Xin
L - Ren Qi

female NT:
S - Ding Xia, Yao Di
OP - Gong Xiang-yu, Zhang Chang-ning
OH - Hui Ruo-qi, Zhu Ting, Liu Xiao-tong, Li Jing
MB - Yuan Xin-yue, Yan Ni, Xu Yun-li
L - Lin Li

My avatar is Jiang Chuan. I hope more persons love him.

jetmasters

shoryuken

Posts: 173

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166

Thursday, June 29th 2017, 4:09pm

@GianLucaBarbei

You can nitpick, twist, and spin all your reasoning with verbosity and jargoning, it still wouldn't change the fact that Hui starting had nothing to do with turning point for China as you have claimed while constantly ignoring her performance and its importance against Brazil when the game was on the line. Win or lose against USA, China was set to face Brazil. With Hui starting, China still lost. Prelims were all about qualifying. Did Brazil or USA win gold with 5-0 record in group stage? In the do or die game against Brazil, Zhu upped her game another level and everyone contributed except for Hui, who had the worst game with negative impact, and you kept telling us she was the turning point for China? She was the captain with Olympic experience and supposedly the second best player for the team but she didn't show up. I agree we should move on with this. Eristic argument leads to no end. Lets hope the freaks you mention turn out to be a star as Zhu will need all the help she can get in this upcoming Olympic cycle.

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167

Thursday, June 29th 2017, 11:46pm

Hey guys, the Chinese NT won the Olympics gold medal. Thus, no need to overanalyse some specific players or debating with such passion. Personnaly I like Hui, but other players had their merits as well in the RIO2016 games. I don't think Hui will be part of 2020 roster. For all these, I think It would be more interesting to debate about players who have chance to be part of roster in 2020 games instead of debating about Hui.

168

Friday, June 30th 2017, 2:07am


Maybe I'll grow taller
and get better at defense
:dance6:
...

Posted by ZodiacTTT: "Sidenote: Ugly japs trying to cheat in the set 2 is just so typical of them :down:" Reported as inappropriate but condoned by moderators who enjoy watching grumpy old men disrespect young women. Typical.

169

Friday, June 30th 2017, 4:18am

Hey guys, the Chinese NT won the Olympics gold medal. Thus, no need to overanalyse some specific players or debating with such passion. Personnaly I like Hui, but other players had their merits as well in the RIO2016 games. I don't think Hui will be part of 2020 roster. For all these, I think It would be more interesting to debate about players who have chance to be part of roster in 2020 games instead of debating about Hui.
Haha, we're done.

In a completely non-argumentative way, I do think she'll make the team. I watched her game like late May and she looks reasonably healthy.

It was a match between Jiangsu and like the worst CVL team Henan but they had Zhu Ting with them. Fans who bought tickets to see stars got their money's worth if only barely I'd say but JLP was there and must have been bored out of her mind because the Rio holdovers didn't do a good job pretending to give 100%. Gong scored the most but she also probably got three times more targets than anyone else. Still very inefficient, her athleticism may be a crutch for her and a roadblock to developing a larger arsenal of moves. Zhang was the best in my opinion but very lackadaisical, especially in the first half or so. Hui was good for what her role called for, did more than was asked of her but only a little more. Points for those three by a very rough count were 19, 17, 12. Zhu was also pretty lethargic, if not very lethargic, and her teammates obviously didn't help. Gong was the only one who you might feel like she really went for it.


I see Li YingYing and Sun Yan make the 2020 Tokyo team as far as young talent is concerned.

170

Friday, June 30th 2017, 6:09am

I see Li YingYing and Sun Yan make the 2020 Tokyo team as far as young talent is concerned.

I'm going to try and watch the 2015 Girls' U18 World Championship - USA v China game tonight to see Li YingYing. If you have a link to a game or two that may be a better highlight of her, please share.

Sun Yan?
...

Posted by ZodiacTTT: "Sidenote: Ugly japs trying to cheat in the set 2 is just so typical of them :down:" Reported as inappropriate but condoned by moderators who enjoy watching grumpy old men disrespect young women. Typical.

samsara

enthusiast

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Posts: 675

Favourite Team: Chinese NT (W)

Favourite Players: Zhu Ting, Zhang Changning, Yuan Xinyue, Xu Yunli, Yan Ni, Zeng Chunlei, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Hui Ruoqi, Gong Xiangyu, Liu Xiaotong, Lin Li

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171

Friday, June 30th 2017, 7:25am

gives the photo of present players in the training camp:
the players in red

back: Gong Xiang-yu, Wang Yuan-yuan, Gao Yi, Yuan Xin-yue, Zhang Chang-ning, Wang Yun-lu, Liu Xiao-tong
front: Lin Li, Ding Xia, Li Jing, Zheng Yi-xin, Qian Jing-wen, Yao Di, Wang Meng-jie

the coaches in white
L2: Yuan Ling-xi (Wei Qiu-yue's ... fiance, assistant coach)
L3: Yuan Zhi (assistant coach)
L4: An Jia-jie (head coach)

Tomen, do you know the CNT FINAL Rosters for the 1st week of WGP2017 ? Are the players listed above the final 14 line-up??

Will ZHU Ting be rested in the Week One? :D TIA!

"The majority of men are not capable of thinking, but only of believing and are not accessible to reason but only to authority." -­ Arthur Schopenhauer

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172

Friday, June 30th 2017, 9:55am

gives the photo of present players in the training camp:
the players in red

back: Gong Xiang-yu, Wang Yuan-yuan, Gao Yi, Yuan Xin-yue, Zhang Chang-ning, Wang Yun-lu, Liu Xiao-tong
front: Lin Li, Ding Xia, Li Jing, Zheng Yi-xin, Qian Jing-wen, Yao Di, Wang Meng-jie

the coaches in white
L2: Yuan Ling-xi (Wei Qiu-yue's ... fiance, assistant coach)
L3: Yuan Zhi (assistant coach)
L4: An Jia-jie (head coach)

Tomen, do you know the CNT FINAL Rosters for the 1st week of WGP2017 ? Are the players listed above the final 14 line-up??

Will ZHU Ting be rested in the Week One? :D TIA!
will the matches be lived on youtube?

samsara

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Favourite Team: Chinese NT (W)

Favourite Players: Zhu Ting, Zhang Changning, Yuan Xinyue, Xu Yunli, Yan Ni, Zeng Chunlei, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Hui Ruoqi, Gong Xiangyu, Liu Xiaotong, Lin Li

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173

Friday, June 30th 2017, 10:16am

source: http://www.sohu.com/a/150073859_553189
title: True block genius won't retire. She will continue her career until 33 years old for Olympics.

Yan Ni said, "In Tokyo Olympics, I will be 33 years old. Of course, if the national team needs me, I will make an effort for it."

Good news! I will love to watch a healthy and fit YAN Ni playing in the 2020 OG :-) I said many times earlier that her age at 33 should not hinder her from playing if she's fine... not yet too old for that!

At this moment I have my vote of confidence upon her contribution to the team. Let's watch out with the evolving time until 2020... perhaps XU Yunli will also stay with the team until 2020 OG, she will also be at 33 by then :-) meanwhile other younger MBs may duly wait for their turns in 2024 OG :D

"The majority of men are not capable of thinking, but only of believing and are not accessible to reason but only to authority." -­ Arthur Schopenhauer

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "samsara" (Jun 30th 2017, 10:22am)


174

Friday, June 30th 2017, 10:59am

Somehow I remember there being another Li Yingying game I saw but I can't find it... she should be good enough. I can guarantee she's not going to be Zhu Ting, but as before I wouldn't mind upgrading Liu or Yang.

Sun Yan. 188 cm, 68 kilos but looks closer to 60. 2001 born, just turned 16. Recently called and been training with the U20 squad. Some older footage of her.

China U17 vs. Supreme Chonburi

China U17 vs. Indonesia (starts 22nd minute)

Both games they got their clocks cleaned, quite naturally, because they're 16 playing grown women. I felt she was the best on the team and the coaches agreed so they've fast-tracked her. Very athletic, could probably be more consistent passing. Recently played one point (set point up 14) vs. the Brazil U20 and actually scored. That point is below.

Sun Yan vs. Brazil U20

Problem is that the team captain is the setter, Cai Yaqian, so I don't know how much time she'll get in the U20 tourney but I'd love to see her play instead of Cai. Cai is a hard worker, great leader I'm sure, 98' born so she's been waiting a while for her shot but...talent :love:

samsara

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Favourite Team: Chinese NT (W)

Favourite Players: Zhu Ting, Zhang Changning, Yuan Xinyue, Xu Yunli, Yan Ni, Zeng Chunlei, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Hui Ruoqi, Gong Xiangyu, Liu Xiaotong, Lin Li

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175

Friday, June 30th 2017, 11:12am

gives the photo of present players in the training camp:
the players in red

back: Gong Xiang-yu, Wang Yuan-yuan, Gao Yi, Yuan Xin-yue, Zhang Chang-ning, Wang Yun-lu, Liu Xiao-tong
front: Lin Li, Ding Xia, Li Jing, Zheng Yi-xin, Qian Jing-wen, Yao Di, Wang Meng-jie

the coaches in white
L2: Yuan Ling-xi (Wei Qiu-yue's ... fiance, assistant coach)
L3: Yuan Zhi (assistant coach)
L4: An Jia-jie (head coach)

Tomen, do you know the CNT FINAL Rosters for the 1st week of WGP2017 ? Are the players listed above the final 14 line-up??

Will ZHU Ting be rested in the Week One? :D TIA!
will the matches be lived on youtube?

As the past practices showed I believe all the matches will be broadcasted live by FIVB, perhaps through the youtube resource... just monitor the FIVB webpage: http://worldgrandprix.2017.fivb.com/en


Meanwhile in the news carried by the Eastday Sports (in CN) dated 30 JUNE 2017 says as follows:

The evening of June 22nd, after the National Games women's volleyball adult group qualifying playoff Ding Xia, Yuan Xinyue and Wang Yunlu returned to the NT to join the team training at the Beilun Training Center in Ningbo, China's eastern province Zhejiang.


Late on the night of June 28th, Zhu Ting backed to join the team.


At this point, the Chinese women's volleyball team already has 15 players gathered. They are: Zhu Ting, Zhang Changning, Ding Xia, Yuan Xinyue, Lin Li, Liu Xiaotong, Gong Xiangyu, Li Jing, Qian Jingwen, Yao Di, Zheng Yixin, Wang Yuanyuan, Gao Yi, Wang Mengjie, Wang Yunlu.


Players seen in this low-res picture of having relaxation in the famous Mount Putuo:

Front row (L-R): Gong Xiangyu, Zheng Yixin, Lin Li, Wang Mengjie, Yao Di, Qian Jingwen, Wang Yunlu, Li Jing
Back row (L-R): Wang Yuanyuan, Gao Yi, Yuan Xinyue, Zhu Ting, Liu Xiaotong

Total 13 players (minus Ding Xia and Zhang Changning who did not participate in the activities of climbing the Putuoshan)


These players should make up the Final 14 for the Kunshan leg, dunno who will be dropped out among the 15 (could be Ding Xia if she has some injury at present)

Source: The Eastday Sports (Chinese) via Baidu Translate into English

"The majority of men are not capable of thinking, but only of believing and are not accessible to reason but only to authority." -­ Arthur Schopenhauer

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "samsara" (Jun 30th 2017, 3:18pm)


176

Friday, June 30th 2017, 2:23pm

All I can say is hui was not that important during Rio Olympics

tomen

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177

Friday, June 30th 2017, 4:13pm

Although Yao Di has faced many times of lack of substitute setters (In Team Tianjin, Wei Qiu-yue has a rest, Mi Yang in Fujian, Chen Xin-ting in Beijing), if Ding Xia has a rest, without substitute setters? Maybe Gong Xiang-yu "returns" the site of the setter? Are you kidding me? I feel Ding Xia will still participate in Week 1 though she might not play the matches.
My favourite roster of Chinese
male NT:
S - Li Run-ming, Zhan Guo-jun
OP - Dai Qing-yao, Jiang Chuan
OH - Ji Dao-shuai, Xia Run-tao, Liu Li-bin, Zhang Chen
MB - Zhang Zhe-jia, Chen Long-hai, Geng Xin
L - Ren Qi

female NT:
S - Ding Xia, Yao Di
OP - Gong Xiang-yu, Zhang Chang-ning
OH - Hui Ruo-qi, Zhu Ting, Liu Xiao-tong, Li Jing
MB - Yuan Xin-yue, Yan Ni, Xu Yun-li
L - Lin Li

My avatar is Jiang Chuan. I hope more persons love him.

samsara

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Posts: 675

Favourite Team: Chinese NT (W)

Favourite Players: Zhu Ting, Zhang Changning, Yuan Xinyue, Xu Yunli, Yan Ni, Zeng Chunlei, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Hui Ruoqi, Gong Xiangyu, Liu Xiaotong, Lin Li

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178

Friday, June 30th 2017, 4:19pm

The team has a tour in Mount Putuo



With the late return of captain Zhu Ting and the arrival of Yang Fangxu, the Chinese women's volleyball team currently doing training in Beilun training facility for the Kunshan leg has a total of 16-member strong as follows:

OH: Zhu Ting (C), Zhang Changning, Liu Xiaotong, Wang Yunlu and Li Jing
MB: Yuan Xinyue, Zheng Yixin, Gao Yi and Wang Yuanyuan
OP: Gong Xiangyu, Yang Fangxu and Qian Jingwen
S: Ding Xia, Yao Di
L: Lin Li, Wang Mengjie


EDIT: YANG Fangxu is not in the Wide-Roster list of WGP2017.

Source: Eastday Sports (2017-06-30 14:03:55)

@Tomen: with above clearer breakdown, I think Ding Xia will be included, the setter is too central to be left in solo. Yet still cannot guess confidently who will be left out, or even from which position (OH / MB / OP... ). Yet if the important team objective is to give some newcomers or not-yet-quite-settled players the playing time for testing or validating purposes then some more established players may instead be left out. Moreover this time China is hosting the Final Six, guaranteed a berth in the final round :D


Just stumbled across a cutie picture :love:


"The majority of men are not capable of thinking, but only of believing and are not accessible to reason but only to authority." -­ Arthur Schopenhauer

This post has been edited 5 times, last edit by "samsara" (Jul 2nd 2017, 10:09am)


ST2008

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179

Friday, June 30th 2017, 8:13pm

All I can say is hui was not that important during Rio Olympics

Whether you like it or not, it was Hui who scored the winning point in the semi-final and the final.

180

Friday, June 30th 2017, 8:24pm

Recently played one point (set point up 14) vs. the Brazil U20 and actually scored. That point is below.

Sun Yan vs. Brazil U20

My bad, you posted that one the other day and I checked it out then. Great shot. Aggressive. She spiked it. Love it. And a nice after-dance. I wish Haruka Miyashita would do that. Often. Like every 3rd or 4th set she gets. She's tall enough. And she's got to do more to keep opponents guessing.

It kills me that there's obscure U17 matches in HD on Youtube while finding anything NEC Red Rockets in HD is nearly impossible.

I'll have a look at the other links. Thanks for sharing.
...

Posted by ZodiacTTT: "Sidenote: Ugly japs trying to cheat in the set 2 is just so typical of them :down:" Reported as inappropriate but condoned by moderators who enjoy watching grumpy old men disrespect young women. Typical.

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