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brahmin

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181

Friday, February 17th 2017, 3:35pm

FIVB Coaching Commission had a press release on Feb. 15, my highlights of their thought on rules and schedule.

Rule changes or rule modifications to facilitate fan understanding and to improve general flow and delivery of the game
The Commission Members suggested
1) the introduction of quick substitution rules to speed up the game
2) to increase the number of substitutions per set allowing for free substitution of players
3) a review of the net touch rule in order to avoid interruptions that are unclear to fans
4) to continue improving the challenge system operation and to study all issues affecting time duration to avoid over extended matches.

Events calendar planning
Recognizing the need to provide players with enough time for recuperation between seasons, members proposed further work with other Commissions to carry out a review of the current volleyball calendar.


My response to the press release. I would prefer a freer substitution rule, change offense for defense in back row or serving. Going back to the older rule of net touch, where if it doesn't affect the play (not blocking or spiking) it doesn't stop the point. Also, improving the challenge system after we've seen the unnecessary issues, only two challenges, plus a third if correct would be good.

As for the events calendar, it would be good for players to have breaks and they need them. Maybe make leagues only 10 to 12 teams in size. Reduces the number of matches overall, make playoffs at most best-of-3 per round.

Could World Cup be broken into two groups of 6, instead of 12 team round robin? Get done in one week instead of two.

Reducing World League or World Grand Prix to 4-5 weeks length is good (already there)

Kk15

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182

Friday, February 17th 2017, 3:57pm

Thanks for the review!

2) to increase the number of substitutions per set allowing for free substitution of players

For me too many substitutions risk to get things a bit messy and I don't see how it can help the fans to follow the game (in case the opposite...), since this seems to be the firs gaol to reach.
Obviously it would be useful being free to put a good diggers/receiver on the back row every rotations, but somehow it seems to 'easy' to me, tactically and technically speaking. Notice that in this example it would be like constantly having two liberos (with one even allowed to spike from the back row).
Another example: when you have a bad server, it's too easy to be allowed to remove him every time and put in a good server: too easy for the player, that wouldn't need to really improve on the serve; to easy for the coach, that wouldn't have to be good enough to catch the right moment to do that single substitution...
I don't know if I made myself clear, I hope you can get what I mean/feel ^^

3) a review of the net touch rule in order to avoid interruptions that are unclear to fans

I definitely hope so. It's so boring (and sometimes difficult to understand, as specified) that the game is interrupted because someone slightly touched the net in a completely not-armful way.
I thought the sense of the old rule was 'It's alway net invasion if you touch the superior or inferior white border (e.g. blocking); if you touch the rest of the net, it's invasion only if it affects the game.
A bit different from what you were suggesting, but the sense it's similar.

brahmin

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183

Friday, February 17th 2017, 4:49pm

With the substitution rules right now, substitutes really do not affect the game much. If you are a back row substitute, if everything is sideout you are only in the match for 6 points at most. Even then a player may only come in for serving and only get one serve before leaving. If a set is 48 points (25-23), your are only in maybe 12% of the set, so really not much of a substitute in a set. In basketball games, players who are substitutes can easily play half the game.

You could make it where you could not change the server until the 2nd full team rotation had completed, before you could do service substitutions. Or possibly the libero could serve because they are already in the back row, but only after 2nd full team rotation.

Teams have benches of 12 or 14 (depending on the league), so this would allow coaches a little more strategy and allow more players to play in matches. Is that a bad thing?

I would bet that it would have some affect on the match, but better players will make better plays to help their team win more often than not.

TimHH

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184

Friday, February 17th 2017, 4:56pm

1) the introduction of quick substitution rules to speed up the game
If substitutions can be done quicker and more efficient, why not...... In the context of "speeding up the game" i miss the mention of Time Outs and TTO.

2) to increase the number of substitutions per set allowing for free substitution of players

I agree with KK15. I somehow lack the fantasy on how this should benefit the game. I think this would lead to even more "specialized" and less "all around" players. Imho this is not where Volleyball should be heading to.

3) a review of the net touch rule in order to avoid interruptions that are unclear to fans

The rule as it is right now is the most clear and transparent to fans and spectators. Touching the net is a fault, pure and simple. I see the problem with unnecessary interruptions and wouldn't have a problem with going back to the older net rule. But then, they should stick to it forever and don't start discussing it in two years again, because the constant changing of the rule is the true root for "unclearness".
never mess with your setter......

185

Friday, February 17th 2017, 6:11pm

2) to increase the number of substitutions per set allowing for free substitution of players

For me this is a big NOOO, it would turn out just like in the NCAA. The games becomes a mess and you never know when is on the court anymore. And I bet this rule idea is coming from some American over there.
What they do in the NCAA is, usually they take the OPP out of the game anytime he/she goes to the back row, and bring a second libero in. This results in lesser skilled all around players, and as you can see why the US has a lot of great OH players, but only a few great OPP players.

In Basketball, or at least in the NBA, a player does not play a full game because they play usually 3-4-5 games per week, 82 regular season games, and with the playoffs it can reach 110 games, and this does not include pre season games, and a lot of times back to back games. The players don`t have enough time to fully rest and play all 4 games in a week. If they were playing only once or twice a week like in Volleyball, all the starters would be playing full time.

Cutting the number of teams is not a good idea because it would result in thousands of volleyball players without a job. :wacko:

This post has been edited 3 times, last edit by "rbdfabio" (Feb 17th 2017, 6:42pm)


Kk15

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186

Friday, February 17th 2017, 7:00pm

I think this would lead to even more "specialized" and less "all around" players

Exactly! I don't have the gift for synthesis :P


would allow coaches a little more strategy and allow more players to play in matches. Is that a bad thing?

More strategy? I don't know, is it strategy if you can do the change whenever you like? Do you need a strategy-master to realize that X serves better than Y so it's probably better to put him in all the time Y should serve? Strategy to me is understand the right moment to do the only change you got...
Of course there will still be needed a bit of strategy/organization to master all the infinity subs you're allowed to do, but coaches have a staff to help him with logistic things.

More time for the players? Yes, but if it's more time to do only one or 2 fundamental I'm not that sure it's quality time...


i miss the mention of Time Outs and TTO.

Right, but I hope after the OG experiment the TTO will disappear... In Italy they are already gone, fortunately.


the constant changing of the rule is the true root for "unclearness".

That's ture. I meet people playing in serie D not being aware that it's more than a year that the rule changed 8|

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Kk15" (Feb 17th 2017, 7:05pm)


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187

Friday, February 17th 2017, 8:33pm

Why not?

I think 8 is pretty good.

I actually want to see some coaches transform their team to another team like maybe instead of using a double sub for the setter and the opposite, the setter instead replaces one of the outside hitters, replace the setter and opposite with two outside hitters and transforming the other OH to an opposite :super:

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188

Friday, February 17th 2017, 9:52pm

Why speed up the game? I rather watch a two hour game than a 1 hour game. Its entertainment and I enjoy watching the sport. If anything speed up the challenge systems and be more efficient with that.

More subs ? No I don't agree with that. This is not high school or college ball, its a professional sport. You can't have speciality players come on the court for every positions, players at this level should be able to play all aspects of the game. Isn't that why we have a defense specialist come in to serve and play back row? And it would slow the game down. I just don't understand why the want to speed it up.

The net touch rules. So not to confuse the fans? WTF Hey you touch the net its a violation.

Having less teams in a league? Why? More teams is twice the fun, more players to watch and more matches. If there is sponsor ships available why not have a team.

The only thing would ask the players if the want more time off at the end of the season.

FIVB needs to do a better job for major tournaments. And just because someone host should not give that country's team an automatic bid. Just pay that host more money to hold the event there.

More big tournaments in the USA.

Kk15

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189

Friday, February 17th 2017, 10:14pm

Why speed up the game?

Not the game, the pauses!

WTF Hey you touch the net its a violation.

The problem imho it's not if the fans understand the rule, but if the fans understand what happens on the court.

Still, for me the real problem with the 'all net fault' it isn't the comprehension of the rule neither the comprehension of what happened on court (that would still stand even with a different rule), but the fact that it leads to many useless (for me) interruption.
I hate when for a little, not armful touch in the middle of the net a wonderful action is interrupted, for example. And I hate when it happen several time in the same set.


@Rains of Castamere: from 8 subs to illimitate number there's a ocean...

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Kk15" (Feb 17th 2017, 10:20pm)


190

Friday, February 17th 2017, 10:53pm

I understand a lot of people are always concerned that the players don`t get enough time off.

But did u guys know they actually get time off during the season? They usually only play once a week, when they are not playing they practice/lift weights once or twice a day. And that takes maybe 2-3 hours, after that, they can go home, relax and do "whatever they want". Basically do normal things. It is not even like having a job 9 to 5.

Don`t you guys follow any player on Social Media? During regular season, they are always posting photos, and they are always touring the country, visiting places, going out to eat, bars, social events, all that. If they were so exhausted and overwhelmed like you guys think they are, they would not be doing those things.

I follow Mihajlovic on instagram, she`s in China, and I think she has visited more places than a normal tourist would do. Same as Conte.
Do you guys listen to Volleywood`s live interview? Just the other day they talked with Robinson and she was basically at home baking with Robin and her boyfriend.
Rodrigo Quiroga is playing in Dubai, he is always out and visiting places.
Malagurski and Busa are always dressed up and going out in Montichiari, Ossoy and Bellien are always eating out
Brakocevic was in Monaco the other day with her husband, and I even wondered if that was a old photo, because how would she be there.... and so on..

They don`t live in a prison during regular season... They live a normal life.

And do u guys think, give them a 30 days vacation, and they can stay home siting on the couch and eating ice cream all day? Or just go on a Around the World Vacation? They can`t do that. They would still need to be lifting weights and playing with a ball. They need to stay in shape year around, and it is hard, but it is life sacrifice. If they could do that, would be wonderful because they would be 60 still be playing...


I heard one time that in Italy players get one day off a week to do whatever they want..

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "rbdfabio" (Feb 17th 2017, 11:05pm)


Kk15

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191

Friday, February 17th 2017, 11:31pm

I heard one time that in Italy players get one day off a week to do whatever they want..

Yes they do, except in particular circumstances (like long travel for a CL Wednesday match, for example).
They usually have a free Monday, at least the teams that I know of.
I thought it was the same in every country ^^'

I remember an interview of Djuric about Korea (I think; East Asia, in any case) where he pointed out that they work too much and he practically didn't have free time or strength left to hang out.
Usually you would think that the more you work the better you get, but I imagine that after all what matter the most is how good/hard you work, not (only) how much...

Maxwell

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192

Saturday, February 18th 2017, 3:28am

Thanks Kk15 for taking time to comment on my post.

brahmin

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193

Saturday, February 18th 2017, 1:31pm

A great example of players not getting time off would the Japanese league. With Japan hosting many international events, As soon as the regular season ends, the national team gets together in like mid-April (sometimes a little earlier) and they wouldn't play for at least 1-2 months. Soccer teams only do that for the World Cup and even then it is only for 1 month. Plus, the VLeague has summer league matches (national team players don't play).
Throw in the World Grand Prix, 4-5 weeks long, more practice for the World Cup (say in 2015), Asian Championships too, you get to the middle or late September and then maybe a month later, they go back to practice for their league teams, or earlier if they play overseas.

You know why Saori Kimura hasn't played well the last couple of years? No vacation to help her recover from injuries. Really she needs a year off to let her body relax. She's basically been without a multiple month break since high school (may not be true, but she's been with national team since then).

The only reasoning I am making for fewer teams in a league is due to the fact that some leagues have a difficult time keeping teams in their leagues due to financial issues. A reduction of teams will lead to a reduction of games, enabling breaks after the season and space to be made in the FIVB and domestic calendar.

Leagues should probably look to a 18-24 game regular season (8-12 teams 2 or 3 matches per team), if only playing once a week a 20 match season would be 4.67 months long, most league do play more than 1 match in some weeks. So regular season is about 4 months long.

Number of matches in regular season for Men's Top League right now
Argentina 20
Brazil 22
China 16-18 (depending on first 10 games finishing position)
France 22
Germany 20
Japan 21
Italy 26
Poland 30
Russia 26
Serbia 18
South Korea 36
Turkey 22

This does not include CEV matches, domestic cups, playoffs or World Club Cup. So Poland, Italy and Russia are the outliers (South Korea plays multiple games in the week).

For Women
Brazil 22
China 16-18 (depending on first 10 games finishing position)
France 22
Italy 22
Japan 21
Poland 26
Russia 18
South Korea 30
Turkey 22

So only Poland and South Korea would be the outliers for the Women.

TimHH

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194

Saturday, February 18th 2017, 1:54pm

You could make it where you could not change the server until the 2nd full team rotation had completed, before you could do service substitutions. Or possibly the libero could serve because they are already in the back row, but only after 2nd full team rotation.

I admit that i had to read twice, to fully understand what you mean.....

In this context, have you ever tried to explain the already existing rules concerning rotation, correct positioning, libero, double touch etc, to a volleyball newbie? In most cases you will get answers like : "Aha, okay..", but usually in combination with a "WTF is he talking about" look on the face. 8)
So making it even more complicated doesn't seem to be very practicable to me.
never mess with your setter......

TimHH

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195

Saturday, February 18th 2017, 2:28pm

The only reasoning I am making for fewer teams in a league is due to the fact that some leagues have a difficult time keeping teams in their leagues due to financial issues. A reduction of teams will lead to a reduction of games, enabling breaks after the season and space to be made in the FIVB and domestic calendar.

Leagues should probably look to a 18-24 game regular season (8-12 teams 2 or 3 matches per team), if only playing once a week a 20 match season would be 4.67 months long, most league do play more than 1 match in some weeks. So regular season is about 4 months long.
But what is the root for these financial issues? if you are a private company/investor, you want your brand/company to be represented as much as possible. Being out of news and events for 7 months doesn't really help here.

So imho, shortening the leagues' schedules would only increase the financial issues of club volleyball. Don't forget that most federations and NTs can't pay the players adequately and that players deeply depend on their contracts with the clubs.
never mess with your setter......

JoanaBG

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196

Saturday, February 18th 2017, 6:25pm

I think the governing bodies of volleyball refuse to acknowledge that clubs are the backbone of professional sport. It's great that they're trying so hard to keep NTs relevant, unlike what's been going on in basketball for example, but it should not be at the expense of club competitions where the players actually earn their living. The Champions League has already been watered down almost to the point of irrelevance. Playing two games a month is nothing, how is that going to bring out and increase the interest?
If anything, it's the NT season that needs to be shorter. We really don't need to have 15 competitions jammed into the summer every year. Especially the pre-Olympic years are a mess, but we've been through it a bunch of times.

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197

Saturday, February 18th 2017, 6:35pm

I think the governing bodies of volleyball refuse to acknowledge that clubs are the backbone of professional sport. It's great that they're trying so hard to keep NTs relevant, unlike what's been going on in basketball for example, but it should not be at the expense of club competitions where the players actually earn their living. The Champions League has already been watered down almost to the point of irrelevance. Playing two games a month is nothing, how is that going to bring out and increase the interest?
If anything, it's the NT season that needs to be shorter. We really don't need to have 15 competitions jammed into the summer every year. Especially the pre-Olympic years are a mess, but we've been through it a bunch of times.

The problem with this seems to me that volleyball is a more popular international or even intercollegiate competitive sports than as a club sports. It involves pride so volleyball will continue as it is.

YavorD

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198

Monday, February 20th 2017, 2:55pm

Let's first say that any change goes through in a difficult way. I was way too young to remember the introduction of the rally-point system, the libero, and all respective changes that accompanied "modern" volleyball back then and yet we can be sure there were voices of wrath regarding the change of status. As it turned out, volleyball changed for the better. These changes were good, most would agree, and were done ONCE, hence providing spectators, players and TV broadcasters with time to adapt. The increased popularity was a positive sign. Volleyball hasn't drastically changed since, yet there have been constant attempts to alter the rules which resulted in confusion, let's be honest. Therefore, I believe that regular changes ruin the show. The game has been doing great for years, I hope most would concur with me, and I don't want it to change again now, for I fear this time it will be for the worse. Finals are well-attended, important tournaments usually deliver, there are high-quality matches almost every week (in different leagues and based on form, level, etc. but you get my point) and TVs seem not to complain about length of matches where popularity is very high (Poland, Italy). We can go on a different level to discuss what other countries lack but now is not the time for that. There is sometimes boredom, of course, be it because of a very strong team or a team's exhaustion but there are reasons for that and it mostly drives off neutral fans if it happens too often. But can we really reduce all tournaments?

Comparisons are a good thing sometimes but I don't like them much when talking/reading about volleyball (apart from the comparison to the length of a tennis match when it comes to TV complaints). Volleyball is a specific, probably one-of-a-kind game when it comes to characteristics. Volleyball is not as exhausting as football or tennis, for instance, thus you can play more matches on a smaller span of days. However, to perform well, a volleyball team is required to spend more time together as many factors are involved/expected to function in order to make the display watchable, a.k.a. presentable. This is why the break between the club season's end and the NT season will always be utilized by NT coaches. I agree with the comments that professional volleyball players are not always super busy. Some of them usually miss parts of the NT preparation or entire tournaments if you want (WL). There are chances, although obviously not many, to recover.

I agree, however, that certain events need to be reduced. The World Cup, in its current format, is a meaningless tournament. I don't like the current WL format but something of a similar length and with more fair distribution would fulfill the idea. We can't have a universal formula for national leagues as geography and popularity play a major role. Bigger countries where volleyball is more popular, hence they have more teams, would always have a longer regular season. An unpopular opinion of mine is that play-offs are often redundant. They are too long, devoid of much sense when you have already played 20, 26, or 30 times in a regular season and at least twice against your play-off opponent, and best-of-5 series are usually boring unless it is a final. Fewer play-off matches will reduce the workload slightly but will increase the quality. I would even have leagues without play-offs, as it happened last season due to the Olympics, which will reduce the season with approx. a month. Nowadays this is hardly applicable due to sponsors and TV coverage, of course. But a well-functioning international body would provide additional money through the championships it organizes. Which is not the case right now.

samsara

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199

Wednesday, February 22nd 2017, 8:14am

Why speed up the game?

Not the game, the pauses!

WTF Hey you touch the net its a violation.

The problem imho it's not if the fans understand the rule, but if the fans understand what happens on the court.

Still, for me the real problem with the 'all net fault' it isn't the comprehension of the rule neither the comprehension of what happened on court (that would still stand even with a different rule), but the fact that it leads to many useless (for me) interruption.
I hate when for a little, not armful touch in the middle of the net a wonderful action is interrupted, for example. And I hate when it happen several time in the same set.


@Rains of Castamere: from 8 subs to illimitate number there's a ocean...

"The problem imho it's not if the fans understand the rule, but if the fans understand what happens on the court."

Why don't just flash the violation of any team that causes a point being given at the large digital display and requires the TV broadcast to show it so all audience (at home too) will also get it. Fans won't get confused if a short explanation is given for any less clear situation. What happens in that rather obscured situation now is just the match referees communicate with the players and/or coaches but no displayed info is given to the audience, in some cases even the commentators don't get it what really happens on court.

"The majority of men are not capable of thinking, but only of believing and are not accessible to reason but only to authority." -­ Arthur Schopenhauer

nnnneil0929

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200

Thursday, March 9th 2017, 4:16am

My country's semi-pro league is introducing a new rule..http://www.volleywood.net/leagues/philip…rting-6-system/

What can you say guys??
FIGHTING! :super:

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