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YavorD

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281

Tuesday, April 4th 2017, 2:07pm

This week's schedule:

4th April / 19:30 / Belgorod (RUS) - Zenit (RUS)
5th April / 19:30 / Berlin Volleys (GER) - Dinamo Moscow (RUS)
5th April / 20:30 / Modena (ITA) - Civitanova (ITA)



Modena and Civitanova are already having playoff series at Italy (series tied 1-1). Zenit and Belgorod just played each other last week. I'm not comfortable with same countrys' teams play with each other at champions league.

Final four be like with 2 Russians and 2 Italian teams(if Moscow manages to eliminate Berlin). I hope they don't match at semi finals.

I'm sorry, but they are going to face each others. There's already the rule according to which Cev doesn't allow more than 2 teams from the same country in the semifinals and more than 1 in the final. This rule has been created 15 years ago in order to avoid all-italian finals
I don't remember exactly when it was created and how often it has been changed/re-established over the years (including sub-rules concerning diversity of semifinalists and finalists), but it surely wasn't 15 years ago. In 2004, meaning 13 years ago, we had an all-Russian final in Belgorod between the hosts Lokomotiv and Iskra Odintsovo. CEV introduced that rule a bit later, I think, and I was too young to remember/know what it was like in the pre-Champions League era :)

fossa1968

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282

Tuesday, April 4th 2017, 3:34pm

This week's schedule:

4th April / 19:30 / Belgorod (RUS) - Zenit (RUS)
5th April / 19:30 / Berlin Volleys (GER) - Dinamo Moscow (RUS)
5th April / 20:30 / Modena (ITA) - Civitanova (ITA)



Modena and Civitanova are already having playoff series at Italy (series tied 1-1). Zenit and Belgorod just played each other last week. I'm not comfortable with same countrys' teams play with each other at champions league.

Final four be like with 2 Russians and 2 Italian teams(if Moscow manages to eliminate Berlin). I hope they don't match at semi finals.

I'm sorry, but they are going to face each others. There's already the rule according to which Cev doesn't allow more than 2 teams from the same country in the semifinals and more than 1 in the final. This rule has been created 15 years ago in order to avoid all-italian finals
Yes I'm aware of that rule anyway, I'm just not comfortable with this rule.

Could anyone please remind me, except volleyball, at which brances host is automatically plays at final four?

Mamdani

Professional

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283

Tuesday, April 4th 2017, 4:55pm

This week's schedule:

4th April / 19:30 / Belgorod (RUS) - Zenit (RUS)
5th April / 19:30 / Berlin Volleys (GER) - Dinamo Moscow (RUS)
5th April / 20:30 / Modena (ITA) - Civitanova (ITA)



Modena and Civitanova are already having playoff series at Italy (series tied 1-1). Zenit and Belgorod just played each other last week. I'm not comfortable with same countrys' teams play with each other at champions league.

Final four be like with 2 Russians and 2 Italian teams(if Moscow manages to eliminate Berlin). I hope they don't match at semi finals.

I'm sorry, but they are going to face each others. There's already the rule according to which Cev doesn't allow more than 2 teams from the same country in the semifinals and more than 1 in the final. This rule has been created 15 years ago in order to avoid all-italian finals
Yes I'm aware of that rule anyway, I'm just not comfortable with this rule.

Could anyone please remind me, except volleyball, at which brances host is automatically plays at final four?

waterpolo

Yavor. Ok :thumbup:
Per un pir, un pam un persec per na brogna e na rumleina, nuetr'a sam d'la Ghirlandeina nuetr'a sam da rispeter




Kk15

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284

Tuesday, April 4th 2017, 6:58pm

Actually I really think that after all the rule was changed as announced, this year: Poland had the chance to get 2 teams in the final. Well, that didn't go quite well for Polish team, but mathematically Zaksa and one among Resovia or Belchatow could have face each other in the final.

I think that this year the sorting + the obligated crossing (not 3 teams of the same country in the Final4, not teams first in the pool facing each other in play offs 12, not teams of the same pool facing each other in the play offs 12) condemned to have two derbies in the play off 6 and 1-2 derbies in the semis.

When among 12+1 teams you have 3 Italian, 3 Russian, 3 Polish, 2 Turkish teams (11/13) the chance of derbies aren't so low after all, having to respect all the condition summed before.
We also have to consider the strength of the teams: I expected more from Zaksa, but beside that all the teams I would have bet on are in the play off 6, and among these 6 teams we have 2 Italians and 3 Russians; if in the semis there were more crossing possible – putting Perugia on the 'Russian' side, for example – in the play off 6 derbies were highly probable anyway (the maximum variability possible was: 1 Turkish team, 1 German, and 1 or 2 from Russia, Poland and Italy --> 6 teams for 5 countries).

285

Wednesday, April 5th 2017, 12:27am

There is volleyball going on while you guys are off-topping here. Belgorod started vs Kazan "mafia-style": Khtei+Smolyar both in starting line up, despite very awkward performance vs Zaksa. I assume the idea was to pressurise Mikhaylov, which frankly speaking failed quite badly. Zenit just destroyed Belgorod in first two sets. In set three Belgorod came up with a complex set of subs: basically they brought three OHs onto the pitch and Muserskiy+Teremenko in the middle. The decaying Khtei has found his deserved space in the warm-up corner, followed by Marlon and then both opps. Bizarrely, the trick worked well - mostly due to improved block-defense and fast balls on Yereshenko. Mikhaylov scored like nothing in set three, Leon looked... not poor as he scored quite a bit but he struggled seriously whenever Muserskiy was on the front court. Belgorod grabbed the set (narrowly) but the tendency has been carried into set 4, which started with -4 for Kazan. Then Alekno kicked the buttocks of his defocused stars and Belgorod wasted points thanks to poor setting of Roman Poroshin. It looked a bit that this scheme was a surprise not only for Kazan but for Belgorod themselves. They eventually lost a very even set via a service ace from Butko.

Where will this take us in the return leg? No doubt, the competitive volleyball in Kazan was possible mostly due to a relaxed attitude of Zenit, but I need to say that Leon+Mikhaylov were unprepared for this defensive play and had no idea what to do with Yereshenko's block-outs. Zenit looked fairly offensively capable in the middle but their opponents were doing better there. Belgorod looked very impressively in their defensive scheme but at the same time they were very raw. Poroshin connected well with Yereshenko but what he set to e.g. Podlesnykh was just poor. What is also very clear is that wasting first two sets when things clearly didn't work before coming up with something intelligent was just wrong as that was a clear chance to pull another set. Belgorod can certainly cause lots of pain to Zenit in the return leg but they would need a small miracle to happen in order to win four sets against these guys. There will be simply no chance for Belgorod if they start the home game with <their President's son-in law> Khtei and Smolyar - will just give away a set and that's a solid goodbye. I would try to fiddle with their defensive scheme a bit more and practice an option of using an opp periodically with that.

Regarding the strengths and weaknesses of Zenit, I'm thinking about their resilience and those side-outs from poor reception as a massive pro. On the other hand, the hole in the middle must look like a problem for them. I've heard that neither Ashev, nor Gutsalyuk have been extended there as yet - which can be both motivating and demotivating at the same time.

286

Wednesday, April 5th 2017, 10:09am

Sadly, volley Champions League is the only competition I know of where the gap between teams gets wider every year. During the late European Champions Cup era and the beggining of Modern Champions League teams from totally not-volley countries like Croatia were able to get 3rd place, we've had winners from France or Germany or very strong te ams from Greece. Then the greek league basically vanished, French and German have weakened, only Turkish and Polish teams were able to regularly challenge the powerhouses, but still the competition was fairly interesting and we've got different winners almosg every year. Lately Polish and Turkish league are regressing and we're almost sure to have yet again event in european club volley decided between Italy or Russia which is getting worse every year. Ir's almost 99.9 % sure Zenit will win for the third time in a row and fourth time in six year or even if not the Russian-Italian dominance started around 2008 will continue - even worse, those countries will probably be the only ones in final four and I don't even remember when something like this happened last time - there always was a third country that somehow "diversified" F4 and now we are stuck with two derbys in semifinals :(

TBH I wait for the Cev Cup and Challenge Cup finals more than for the CL final four

Kaziyski

Bulgarian NT hater declared by dido1302

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Posts: 3,950

Location: Croatia

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287

Wednesday, April 5th 2017, 11:30am

Sadly, volley Champions League is the only competition I know of where the gap between teams gets wider every year. During the late European Champions Cup era and the beggining of Modern Champions League teams from totally not-volley countries like Croatia were able to get 3rd place, we've had winners from France or Germany or very strong te ams from Greece. Then the greek league basically vanished, French and German have weakened, only Turkish and Polish teams were able to regularly challenge the powerhouses, but still the competition was fairly interesting and we've got different winners almosg every year. Lately Polish and Turkish league are regressing and we're almost sure to have yet again event in european club volley decided between Italy or Russia which is getting worse every year. Ir's almost 99.9 % sure Zenit will win for the third time in a row and fourth time in six year or even if not the Russian-Italian dominance started around 2008 will continue - even worse, those countries will probably be the only ones in final four and I don't even remember when something like this happened last time - there always was a third country that somehow "diversified" F4 and now we are stuck with two derbys in semifinals :(

TBH I wait for the Cev Cup and Challenge Cup finals more than for the CL final four


Great post, I fully agree :thumbup:

But the biggest problem is lack of money in non-volley countries. For Croatia I can say professionaly volleyball is extinct. Clubs don't have money even to cover participating costs, not to mention player wages... OK, Mladost Zagreb made some steps forward, Mladost Ribola Kaštela also but in general u cannot live only from wages. The most of them are working or studying, stopping careers when they finish education or due work. Last time CRO volley had bigger result was almost 10 years ago when Mladost Zagreb reached Challenge Cup finals against Perugia but I don't see any Croatian club repeating something similar in near future. So with great certainty I can say that the days when Mladost Zagreb beat Sisley Treviso with Bernardi, Zwerver, Tofoli,Vermiglio, Fomin, Gardini etc. (epic match for 3rd place back in 1996/1997) are gone and won't repeat ever again. Just to say, Sisely won scudetto that season :whistle:

There are several reasons for that apart from finances. Yugoslavian league was one of the best in Europe, even in the world, with great teams such as Mladost Zagreb, Partizan, Gik Banat Zrenjanin, Crvena Zvezda, Modriča (BIH), Skopje (FYROM) etc. Mladost Zagreb have had the best system and scouting network, other teams just copied that in time. F.e Nikola Grbić signed for Mladost Zagreb but due war Nikola never played single match... unlike his brother Vladimir who played one season in Zagreb but left it in 1991. after war started. Today, national league in Croatia is extremly weak, not to mention Bosnia and Herzegovina, FYRO Macedonia or Montenegro, only Serbia has few decent teams. Same goes for Slovenia where you have ACH Volley and Calcit Kamnik. Interest for volley isn't big as football, basketball and handball are more dominant and it's quite hard to atract kids to volleyball. Also a lot of "small", personal, interets or better to say nepotism are stopping wider development in all countries. I felt that on my own "skin".
Shiva :heart:

Kk15

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288

Wednesday, April 5th 2017, 2:54pm

There is volleyball going on while you guys are off-topping here.

We weren't off topic at all :thumbdown:

Interesting topic the one about the level gap of the team joining the CL, I do agree with you (even if I'm very glad Italy is always there) and I read with pleasure Kaziyski 'historical' lesson!

289

Wednesday, April 5th 2017, 9:54pm

Wow Modena is definitely in the heads of Lube players. In this third set they look so nervous, shouting at each other.

290

Wednesday, April 5th 2017, 10:00pm

That is the most stupid change I've ever seen.

291

Wednesday, April 5th 2017, 10:07pm

Blengini-Sokolov ? :whistle: Kovar is hitting without a block in whole series

292

Wednesday, April 5th 2017, 10:09pm

Berlin 3-2 Moscow :D

I still believe dinamo will win 3-0 or 3-1 at home, but BRV once again proved to be amongst the best teams in Europe. If they miss the final 4 they have only themselves to blame though - theg should have easily won first set ( lost 23-25 after leading 15-9) and second was also very close (22-25)

293

Wednesday, April 5th 2017, 10:14pm

It looks like Modena choose Italian league over Champions league. Sunday will be different

Mamdani

Professional

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Favourite Team: Azimut Modena Volley, Liu Jo Nordmeccanica Modena, Italy NT (M/F)

Favourite Players: Vullo - Cuminetti - Van de Goor - Giani - Bracci - Cantagalli (Modena 96/97 to sum up, the best team ever existed )

Location: Italy

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294

Wednesday, April 5th 2017, 11:04pm

Sadly, volley Champions League is the only competition I know of where the gap between teams gets wider every year. During the late European Champions Cup era and the beggining of Modern Champions League teams from totally not-volley countries like Croatia were able to get 3rd place, we've had winners from France or Germany or very strong te ams from Greece. Then the greek league basically vanished, French and German have weakened, only Turkish and Polish teams were able to regularly challenge the powerhouses, but still the competition was fairly interesting and we've got different winners almosg every year. Lately Polish and Turkish league are regressing and we're almost sure to have yet again event in european club volley decided between Italy or Russia which is getting worse every year. Ir's almost 99.9 % sure Zenit will win for the third time in a row and fourth time in six year or even if not the Russian-Italian dominance started around 2008 will continue - even worse, those countries will probably be the only ones in final four and I don't even remember when something like this happened last time - there always was a third country that somehow "diversified" F4 and now we are stuck with two derbys in semifinals :(

TBH I wait for the Cev Cup and Challenge Cup finals more than for the CL final four


So with great certainty I can say that the days when Mladost Zagreb beat Sisley Treviso with Bernardi, Zwerver, Tofoli,Vermiglio, Fomin, Gardini etc. (epic match for 3rd place back in 1996/1997) are gone and won't repeat ever again. Just to say, Sisely won scudetto that season :whistle:


Nope. We did :D
Per un pir, un pam un persec per na brogna e na rumleina, nuetr'a sam d'la Ghirlandeina nuetr'a sam da rispeter



This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Mamdani" (Apr 6th 2017, 10:36am)


TimHH

Master

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Posts: 2,228

Favourite Players: LLoy Ball, Pavel Zagumny, Nikola Grbic, Robertlandy Simon, Dmitry Muserskiy. Murillo Endres, Nikolay Pavlov, Luciano De Cecco

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295

Thursday, April 6th 2017, 12:00am

Nice comeback win by Berlin again :super:

Beating Lube, Resovia and Dinamo sounds pretty good and regardless of the outcome of the return match this CL campaign can already be considered a success. Of course i hope that they can go all the way now.

I could not watch the match but finally Serniotti trusted Carroll and obviously he paid back with a good performance. A bit less of burden in attack for Kromm obviously did him well too......
never mess with your setter......

TimHH

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296

Thursday, April 6th 2017, 1:09am

I just watched the end of third set between Modena and Lube hoping for some thrill and entertainment, but boy, that was really dire and almost boring to watch :white:

For those who watched the full match, i hope this was more entertaining/better quality.....
never mess with your setter......

297

Thursday, April 6th 2017, 1:10am

Berlin 3-2 Moscow :D

I still believe dinamo will win 3-0 or 3-1 at home, but BRV once again proved to be amongst the best teams in Europe. If they miss the final 4 they have only themselves to blame though - theg should have easily won first set ( lost 23-25 after leading 15-9) and second was also very close (22-25)


BRV would prove that they belong to the best teams in Europe if they qualify for F4: one can't deny they had the lucky draw, just as Dinamo did. Moscow has won miraculously a five-setter vs Noliko in Belgium this season, which looked very similar to the Berlin game. They pick very little in defense and tend to look a bit unsettled overall; the coach Marichev doesn't help here as his time-outs are (surprisingly for his level) just psychotic. I guess after working with women NT he'll never be himself :). Joking aside, I agree that those two first sets in Berlin are likely to be decisive and Dinamo is likely to be able to wrap things up - unless they of course do not completely fall out with each other as they looked to be about to.



Sadly, volley Champions League is the only competition I know of where the gap between teams gets wider every year.

But the biggest problem is lack of money in non-volley countries.


I think you guys are mixing together several phenomena. In brief terms, you're complaining about the lack of financial support for volleyball in certain countries but ignoring the fact that both the game and the countries are changing. E.g. you're correctly highlighting the CL winners from France and Germany in 2000s but omitting the fact that there were the only four cases when a non-Ita/non-Rus team won the competition since 1980. What made things different was:

1. That big volleyball has spread beyond the "socialistic camp" i.e. the pro volleyballers became true pro - and here we need to thank the Italian league;

2. The free migration of talents towards more competitive (financially and volleyball-wise) leagues was soon to arrive. Think how much Italian are the Italian clubs these days; one may argue that Kazan is by far more mononational club but they represent the same phenomenon still as there have been only two local talents in Zenit (Babichev and Poletaev), they just bought whatever they could from other Rus clubs. Obviously, this does apply to other leagues too. Think how Polish is Zaksa where the driving force can be seemingly attributed to Tonuitti and Deroo. Turkish clubs are by far the worst here as they very openly rely solely on whom they but/rent overseas. Greek clubs that used to be so big in CL - did they not have people like Ball and Stanley? Mostly so.

3. But at the same time volleyball failed to reach the impact of other team sports like football or ice hockey. As a result, it is a vulnerable asset valued by a small group of emotionally biased investors or careless behemoths like Gazprom. Which in turn explains the financial weakness of national volleyball leagues in the biggest EU economical players. Imagine for a second that France and Germany had serious competitive leagues and the team from Berlin were called e.g. Siemens Volleys or Volkswagen Volleys - in this case we would've had a picture similar to UEFA CL in the CEL CL by now.

To summarise, big international pro sport competitions are unlikely to be won by teams from small economies these days. The time when a team from e.g. Bucharest could win UEFA CL or CEV CL seems to be in the past by now. Yes, there can always happen something like Leicester-2016 but the chances are low.

Now, regarding Croatian sports and volleyball in particular, my q is how much truly Croatian is in it. Sports is not just a pro league but also schools/scouts/coaches; this is a serious commitment. How much of that you think has been inherited from "the empire"? Here's a bit of a hardcore example of what I'm saying. The winner of the last two all-USSR micro-Olympics (known az Spartakiada narodov SSSR) in volleyball was Ukrainian SSR - in 1986 and 1991. The schools and the infrastructure were very much there when the SSR in question became de jure independent - and we both know where Poltavskiy and Muserskiy were having their first lessons. In early 2000s Ukraine still had OK teams both in men and women volleyball but by 2010 the top league in there was clearly dying and things hardly improved since then ;). What I'm saying is that there is a good chance that Croatia has used up its imperial gift by now. You would know better of course.

fossa1968

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298

Thursday, April 6th 2017, 8:10pm

It looks like Modena choose Italian league over Champions league. Sunday will be different
Yes I realised that Modena couldn't survive. Choosing Italian league may not be a mistake but deciding to sacrifice one of the games is a mistake I think. What's the difference you will ask. I expected Modena to fight at home but they couldn't resist at even 3rd set.

My heart is with Civitanova on Sunday.

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299

Monday, April 10th 2017, 10:27pm

From what I saw Belogorie if they have a good night can force Zenit Kazan to a golden set.

It's cliche but they just have to believe in themselves.

I saw some great tactics like maximizing the receiving strength and even Muserskiy at tne back by removing Maxim Zhigalov for Yaroslav as some receiving opposite.. I think it worked for them but they just lost focus when Zenit started bombing serves at the zone 5.

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300

Wednesday, April 12th 2017, 6:09pm

Too many volleyball matches including football's Champions League coming up. :down:

I'm not sure what I will watch but Berlin-Moscow just begun. :drink:

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