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brahmin

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501

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 7:15am

This is not a conspiracy on the pools. The FIVB changed the seeding to only host +top 7 teams. Last two tournaments it was host + top 11. I think that the extra row gave the tournament a little more randomness.

The tournament has always had the teams carry their results from the first round with the teams that advanced. With only 3 teams advancing from the second round, you have to win matches against the other pool from the first round. Japan in 2010 as hosts lost their first match of the second round to China. However the Japanese had won all five first round matches. So, a loss at the beginning did not hurt them as much. But if they had one lost entering the second round, every match for them would be win or go home.

Pool B in my mind is the toughest pool, Bulgaria and Turkey will sneak up on you, plus Italy and China cannot fall asleep against them. Japan in Pool A, in my mind must sweep (5-0) their first round matches. Facing Serbia and Brazil in the second round means that if they lost to the Netherlands, they would have to beat one or both to make the third round.

502

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 5:18pm

FIVB changed the seeding to only host +top 7 teams. Last two tournaments it was host + top 11. I think that the extra row gave the tournament a little more randomness.

Maybe I misunderstand you--which is likely--but how is seeding the third row through random draw less random than seeding it 1-11? Or are you saying the randomness of seeding it randomly makes it less interesting/important? When the pools were posted here as 1-11 people whined about that. Then the official pools are posted and people whine about that. Turkey could have ended up in Pool A.

Where I come up short from jumping on the whine about everything attitude bandwagon here is, for example, lets say in the second round we come to a match where it doesn't matter if China wins or loses because they are advancing anyway. So Liu Xiaotong plays instead of Zhu Ting. I'm happy about that. To assert that it doesn't matter to Liu Xiaotung if she wins or loses the game is pathetic (not that you are saying that, @brahmin). Or that it doesn't matter to the players playing for 5th/6th after they've been eliminated from a medal? Please.

There are people in the world who enjoy watching volleyball. And there are volleyball players who enjoy, and care, about playing volleyball. The more the merrier. Bring it on! If your team is the best, they will win and we will congratulate you.
...

Posted by ZodiacTTT: "Sidenote: Ugly japs trying to cheat in the set 2 is just so typical of them :down:" Reported as inappropriate but condoned by moderators who enjoy watching grumpy old men disrespect young women. Typical.

503

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 6:05pm

This is not a conspiracy on the pools. The FIVB changed the seeding to only host +top 7 teams. Last two tournaments it was host + top 11. I think that the extra row gave the tournament a little more randomness.

The tournament has always had the teams carry their results from the first round with the teams that advanced. With only 3 teams advancing from the second round, you have to win matches against the other pool from the first round. Japan in 2010 as hosts lost their first match of the second round to China. However the Japanese had won all five first round matches. So, a loss at the beginning did not hurt them as much. But if they had one lost entering the second round, every match for them would be win or go home.

Pool B in my mind is the toughest pool, Bulgaria and Turkey will sneak up on you, plus Italy and China cannot fall asleep against them. Japan in Pool A, in my mind must sweep (5-0) their first round matches. Facing Serbia and Brazil in the second round means that if they lost to the Netherlands, they would have to beat one or both to make the third round.


In 2010 second round Japan lost to China and lost Russia as well, and that is problem with carrying points, because if you finish 5-0 in the first round, all you need to do is win 2 games in the second round and you are in, In 2014 Brazil and USA went for 5-0, in the second round they won their first 2 games and that was it, they were already qualifed to the 3rd round...they even played with their bench the final 2 games. While Turkey/Bulgaria,Netherlands were already eliminated with 2 games left to play, only Russia/Serbia had chances to take the 3rd spot.

and same thing will happen again... USA will finish 5-0, all they will have to do is win one game and likely against Bulgaria and they are in. While Turkey and Bulgaria will finish 3# and 4#, as soon as they loose one game and that will happen against USA they will be gone.

If Japan can beat NED and go 5-0, they can still loose for Serbia and Brazil and take the 3rd spot.

Basically whoever finishes 3rd must win every game in the second round to have a chance to make it and probably still depend on other results....while who finishes in 4th has no changes to qualify basically as long the 1# 2# from the first round win at least one game in the second round.

jetmasters

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504

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 7:02pm

So an easy pool will give a team advantage in the next rounds. That is why 16 team playoff is better so there is no second chance when you lose.

505

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 7:23pm

FIVB changed the seeding to only host +top 7 teams. Last two tournaments it was host + top 11. I think that the extra row gave the tournament a little more randomness.

Maybe I misunderstand you--which is likely--but how is seeding the third row through random draw less random than seeding it 1-11? Or are you saying the randomness of seeding it randomly makes it less interesting/important? When the pools were posted here as 1-11 people whined about that. Then the official pools are posted and people whine about that. Turkey could have ended up in Pool A.

Where I come up short from jumping on the whine about everything attitude bandwagon here is, for example, lets say in the second round we come to a match where it doesn't matter if China wins or loses because they are advancing anyway. So Liu Xiaotong plays instead of Zhu Ting. I'm happy about that. To assert that it doesn't matter to Liu Xiaotung if she wins or loses the game is pathetic (not that you are saying that, @brahmin). Or that it doesn't matter to the players playing for 5th/6th after they've been eliminated from a medal? Please.

There are people in the world who enjoy watching volleyball. And there are volleyball players who enjoy, and care, about playing volleyball. The more the merrier. Bring it on! If your team is the best, they will win and we will congratulate you.


If China goes 5-0 in the first round, then in the second round all they have to do is beat Korea/Thailand, the final games against Russia/USA they can just play with their bench.

And there `s a problem that can occur in the 3rd round as well with the 3 teams. For example in 2014 the 2 groups were Italy/USA/Russia and on the other Brazil/China/Dominican Republic.
Brazil defeated China in 3-0, Brazil 3 points and China 0.
China defeated Dominican Republic in 3-2, which means China got 2 points and D.Rep 1.
The final game Brazil defeated R.Republic in 3-0.

Final standing Brazil 6 points, China 2 and D. Republic eliminated with 1 point.

For Brazil the final game against D. Republic was worthless as they were already qualified, they could simply play with their bench and let D.Republic win, but they choose not to.
If it was China or any other team especially European they would have never played their their main players, they would simply rest them for the semi-finals.

Sisko95

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506

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 7:40pm

Where I come up short from jumping on the whine about everything attitude bandwagon here is, for example, lets say in the second round we come to a match where it doesn't matter if China wins or loses because they are advancing anyway. So Liu Xiaotong plays instead of Zhu Ting. I'm happy about that. To assert that it doesn't matter to Liu Xiaotung if she wins or loses the game is pathetic (not that you are saying that, @brahmin). Or that it doesn't matter to the players playing for 5th/6th after they've been eliminated from a medal? Please.

There are people in the world who enjoy watching volleyball. And there are volleyball players who enjoy, and care, about playing volleyball. The more the merrier. Bring it on! If your team is the best, they will win and we will congratulate you.
Yes, obviously people who regularly post on this volleyball forum about the matches they've been watching all season despise watching volleyball :rolleyes:

Yeah, it might matter to Liu Xiaotung if she gets a chance to impress the coach and play more but it doesn't matter to me particularly.


Let's say China win their first 7 matches and are already through, then they choose to play with the bench players. It means that the teams they have to play next have an unfair advantage over the teams China have already beaten with their usual starters. Does that mean I won't enjoy the match? Possibly or possibly not but it won't interest me as much as a match that matters. I prefer watching matches that mean more and I think the current format is too long and too many of the matches don't mean that much. The players are professionals and they all want to win every match they play, etc. etc. Of course this is true but these top players are here to win medals, not fight for 5th.

And yes, I do believe that a 5th-6th place playoff match doesn't mean much to players, maybe it does if they are real underdogs with no chance of winning a medal anyway who are just happy to be there. Why do you think that most sports don't have these at the highest level? Look at tennis, football, NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, cricket, pretty much any other sport. Even the third place playoff at the FIFA world cup is criticised for being unimportant, not just by fans but by players and coaches.

507

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 7:50pm

Where I come up short from jumping on the whine about everything attitude bandwagon here is, for example, lets say in the second round we come to a match where it doesn't matter if China wins or loses because they are advancing anyway. So Liu Xiaotong plays instead of Zhu Ting. I'm happy about that. To assert that it doesn't matter to Liu Xiaotung if she wins or loses the game is pathetic (not that you are saying that, @brahmin). Or that it doesn't matter to the players playing for 5th/6th after they've been eliminated from a medal? Please.

There are people in the world who enjoy watching volleyball. And there are volleyball players who enjoy, and care, about playing volleyball. The more the merrier. Bring it on! If your team is the best, they will win and we will congratulate you.
Yes, obviously people who regularly post on this volleyball forum about the matches they've been watching all season despise watching volleyball :rolleyes:

Yeah, it might matter to Liu Xiaotung if she gets a chance to impress the coach and play more but it doesn't matter to me particularly.


Let's say China win their first 7 matches and are already through, then they choose to play with the bench players. It means that the teams they have to play next have an unfair advantage over the teams China have already beaten with their usual starters. Does that mean I won't enjoy the match? Possibly or possibly not but it won't interest me as much as a match that matters. I prefer watching matches that mean more and I think the current format is too long and too many of the matches don't mean that much. The players are professionals and they all want to win every match they play, etc. etc. Of course this is true but these top players are here to win medals, not fight for 5th.

And yes, I do believe that a 5th-6th place playoff match doesn't mean much to players, maybe it does if they are real underdogs with no chance of winning a medal anyway who are just happy to be there. Why do you think that most sports don't have these at the highest level? Look at tennis, football, NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, cricket, pretty much any other sport. Even the third place playoff at the FIFA world cup is criticised for being unimportant, not just by fans but by players and coaches.


But those are Domestic League tournaments, and yes they don`t have 3rd place match, and all that...and so all the Volleyball leagues does not have that either. If you loose a quaterfinal game you are done with the season, same thing when you loose a semi-final series you are done, there`s no 3rd place match in any volleyball league (at least as far as I know)

Matthias

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508

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 7:53pm

If you loose a quaterfinal game you are done with the season, same thing when you loose a semi-final series you are done, there`s no 3rd place match in any volleyball league (at least as far as I know)
I remember Polish league last season (or maybe the year before, not sure) had classfication matches for every rank, even for 11th :rolll:

509

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 7:55pm

If you loose a quaterfinal game you are done with the season, same thing when you loose a semi-final series you are done, there`s no 3rd place match in any volleyball league (at least as far as I know)
I remember Polish league last season (or maybe the year before, not sure) had classfication matches for every rank, even for 11th :rolll:


Oh ok yeah...and their format is really stupid. There`s no quaterfinal...only semi-finals and then all these worthless 5th to 11th place,

but still.... I guess Poland is the one one that does... Turkey, Brazil, Italy don`t do that.

Sisko95

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510

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 8:10pm

But those are Domestic League tournaments, and yes they don`t have 3rd place match, and all that...and so all the Volleyball leagues does not have that either. If you loose a quaterfinal game you are done with the season, same thing when you loose a semi-final series you are done, there`s no 3rd place match in any volleyball league (at least as far as I know)
Yeah, some of those are domestic leagues but there is also no 5th place match in the international events of these sports (World Cups, World Championships, etc.) at least not as far as I know. In some there is not even a bronze medal match. And the reason for this is because the players and fans simply aren't very interested in these matches. Like I said they should keep the 3rd place match, but 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th etc is just unnecessary.

This post by "FAME" (Saturday, December 9th 2017, 8:22pm) has been deleted by the author himself (Sunday, December 10th 2017, 5:26pm)

512

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 8:27pm

And I just remember that Chinese League does play for bronze medal as well.

But yeah ok... I guess mostly of us can agree we don`t like the WCH format, but there`s nothing we can do :wacko: ....

Let`s just enjoy as it is...

513

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 8:58pm

I'd love to see a tournament that was March Madness style win or go home. Boom! That's what I grew up on.

The system as it is seems tortured and convoluted ... more, or less, because Japan has lots of money and are charming hosts. I get that. But it is what it is. The overwhelming consensus for this year's tournaments was that Montreux was a circus sideshow, WGP was unimportant, ACh--gimme a break, WGCC was meaningless, ECh praise the lord, and now the WCh is a joke. Seems sad. But it is what it is.

I imagine that if something bizarre happens and China find themselves battling for 5th place it won't be Zhu Ting's happiest day of the year. Same for Serbia, Italy, USA, etc., and their stars. I wouldn't care if they did away with those games. But those second round matches that don't matter ... I think it's cool that some young woman on Brazil's B-team who's dedicated her life to volleyball gets a chance to score 30 points in a WCh game. I probably wouldn't watch it, but not because it doesn't matter. I am happy it exists, but wouldn't complain if the system didn't provide for it.

But ...
Let's say China win their first 7 matches and are already through, then they choose to play with the bench players. It means that the teams they have to play next have an unfair advantage over the teams China have already beaten with their usual starters.

Good point. But it seems like there are dozens of "ifs" that happen in any large scale tournament?

This is my first year watching Volleyball. I want to enjoy it for what it is. Maybe after a few years, if I make it that far, I will have a different attitude.
...

Posted by ZodiacTTT: "Sidenote: Ugly japs trying to cheat in the set 2 is just so typical of them :down:" Reported as inappropriate but condoned by moderators who enjoy watching grumpy old men disrespect young women. Typical.

Sisko95

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514

Saturday, December 9th 2017, 9:30pm

That's fair enough sitenoise and I think we largely agree. And don't worry, even though we might not like the system even us rowdy Europeans will be the first to admit the WCH is obviously more important than ECH and we'll enjoy it too

This post by "FAME" (Saturday, December 9th 2017, 11:02pm) has been deleted by the author himself (Sunday, December 10th 2017, 5:25pm)

516

Sunday, December 10th 2017, 5:41am


And there `s a problem that can occur in the 3rd round as well with the 3 teams. For example in 2014 the 2 groups were Italy/USA/Russia and on the other Brazil/China/Dominican Republic.
Brazil defeated China in 3-0, Brazil 3 points and China 0.
China defeated Dominican Republic in 3-2, which means China got 2 points and D.Rep 1.
The final game Brazil defeated R.Republic in 3-0.

Final standing Brazil 6 points, China 2 and D. Republic eliminated with 1 point.

For Brazil the final game against D. Republic was worthless as they were already qualified, they could simply play with their bench and let D.Republic win, but they choose not to.
If it was China or any other team especially European they would have never played their their main players, they would simply rest them for the semi-finals.


that's why i said above: groups of 3 teams are stupid. WAY STUPID. fifa learned that in 1982.

jetmasters

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517

Sunday, December 10th 2017, 5:45am

Eliminate round 3 and go back to round 2 format, best 2 advances to semi.

518

Sunday, December 10th 2017, 6:01am

well, WGCC was/is totally meaningless!!!!

Ayra

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519

Sunday, December 10th 2017, 7:15am

well, WGCC was/is totally meaningless!!!!


For some fans, yes that tournament is seen as useless but some fans do actually enjoy it. I think the teams that were part of it this year actually took it seriously. China brought the A-team along with Lang Ping, Brazil brought who they could (the ones who weren't injured or pregnant), USA brought back the veterans, Russia brought Kosheleva and Goncharova and Japan also brought its best team.

Some tournaments or matches may be seen as useless by some fans but certain teams see it otherwise. If a team joins a tournament, regardless of its level of importance, they want to win. Besides, as long as the fans are watching the games, those tournaments deemed as unimportant will continue because it brings money to the federation. For instance, like you guys said, in the upcoming WCh there will be some useless matches but I'm pretty sure fans will still watch those games via streaming or in the arena.

520

Sunday, December 10th 2017, 1:47pm

well, WGCC was/is totally meaningless!!!!


For some fans, yes that tournament is seen as useless but some fans do actually enjoy it. I think the teams that were part of it this year actually took it seriously. China brought the A-team along with Lang Ping, Brazil brought who they could (the ones who weren't injured or pregnant), USA brought back the veterans, Russia brought Kosheleva and Goncharova and Japan also brought its best team.

Some tournaments or matches may be seen as useless by some fans but certain teams see it otherwise. If a team joins a tournament, regardless of its level of importance, they want to win. Besides, as long as the fans are watching the games, those tournaments deemed as unimportant will continue because it brings money to the federation. For instance, like you guys said, in the upcoming WCh there will be some useless matches but I'm pretty sure fans will still watch those games via streaming or in the arena.
All I can say is all natiaonal teams(except korea) bring some veterans back to their natiaonal teams in WGCC. However, Fivb world grand prix is just a practise arena for young players~~! :teach:

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