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  • "Angel" is male

Posts: 2,119

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61

Wednesday, February 22nd 2017, 1:34am


And the reason why nobody talks about women who become men is that this is not relevant in relation to sport. Women who become men obviously will never be able to compete in male leagues...they are simply too weak.


Oh please...if this is the level of your argument, this is my last time about this topic.

Matthias

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62

Wednesday, February 22nd 2017, 12:47pm

Some people seem to forget that Tiffany was a pro player on high level when she was still a man, so of course she's a great player that makes a difference for an A2 team. But you guys make it sound like just by changing sex you can become a superstar in women's volleyball :roll:

I recommend you to watch the match posted on the previous page. You'll see that she surely is a strong player, but IMO absolutely not "un-female".

Kk15

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63

Wednesday, February 22nd 2017, 4:43pm

I think saying that Tiffany is advantaged compared to 'XX women' is a bit meaningless, if you consider as paragon object only the women playing in A2.

Wouldn't also Egonu be absolutely advantaged there, for example?

I ask you (generic you): if Egonu next year will play with Palmì in A2, would you consider that unfair because she is too high/spikes too strong/jumps too much? I don't think so. May be you would find it inappropriate, may be you would question her choice, but you wouldn't question her right to do so.

If (and I underline IF) we (or FIVB, CIO etc) really feel it's necessary to paragone Tiffany to other female volleyball players (to asset if she has or not an advantage on 'XX women', and in case to quantify the advantage), we should compare her with the strongest players (or better, the strongest spikers) among the globe, not the A2 players!

In this hypothetical scenario, if Tiffany – or any other transgender woman – would turn out to have advantages on ALL the other players, then (and only then) we could (may be!) discuss if it's fair or not to let her play with women.

In this scenario I admit I'm not sure about my feelings: humanistically speaking I have no doubt about her right to play with women, sportingly speaking I still have a few doubt (may be not for volleyball that requires also a lot of technic, but for other sports I think it's a more delicate question).

Kk15

Ps in Tiffany case (the real one, not my scenario :P) part of the problem imho was that she arrived with the season started by a long time, so she can change equilibrium even more than she would have done doing the whole season. But that's true also when you aire Djuric or Kaizisky or Bruno for the play off...

JoanaBG

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64

Wednesday, February 22nd 2017, 4:57pm

It's not about Tiffany or any other specific player. Sure, a scrub player in a lower league team is something we can all just shrug off. But it's a matter of principle. What if Juantorena or Muserskiy decided they're actually women, had a sex change and wanted to compete in women's league? It would look a bit different, wouldn't it?

Matthias

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65

Wednesday, February 22nd 2017, 5:06pm

It's nothing you DECIDE...and if it happened that way, what right do we have to say no to it? It's not up to us to decide it but up to the authorities who have the expertise.

saishuu

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66

Wednesday, February 22nd 2017, 6:37pm

Matthias said it all but geez, being trans is not something you decide. You don't wake up one day and think "oh I'm gonna undergo hormone therapy and risk having most people in my life turn away from me, losing my career and live ages under heavy criticism, prejudice and a poor quality of life". It's not something you'd choose for yourself, it's something you are.

You people are talking like there are going to be tons of trans people entering professional sports all of sudden - even men going through gender reassignment just to play in another league, which is just absolutely ridiculous. Do you people have any idea how much emotionall and physical distress trans people have to go through just to be who they are, not to mention keep their careers and have a steady income? If an athlete like Tifanny feels like doing it to be true to who she is while doing what she knows to do (play volleyball), she should be supported, not scrutinized. Try putting yourself in her or any other trans person's shoes just for a bit.
Gold - European Championship 2013 (M) Prediction Game
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JoanaBG

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67

Wednesday, February 22nd 2017, 7:54pm

It's completely irrelvant whether it's someone decision or not. It can be someone's real nature or a calculated move in order to gain advantage, the end result is the same. There are pretty significant biological differences between men and women, which is why they compete separately in professional sports. And as long as they do, someone with Y chromosomes should not have a place in a woman's league.
Of course, people can and should be free to go about their daily lives however they please, it's none of my business.

  • "serdar" is male

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68

Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 12:42am

Sunday Tiffany de Abreu (ex Rodrigo) made her debut in Palmi scoring 28 points. There are a lot of complaining here in Italy about this issue, people are divided in their thoughts on this.
Italian people are actually more open-minded than I expected. We all agree that transgenders must not be discriminated and should have equal rights as all other citizens.
However here the matter is Women's Rights. Women's right to play volleyball at high level. This right is now in danger, because with transgenders being allowed in female leagues, and there will be more and more in the next years, women born women will be no longer able to compete.
Sunday match in Italian A2 between Palmi and Trento made it finally clear. Tiffany, who is now considered a woman after hormones treatment and surgery, still jumps and spikes like a man. And this is not fair.
I'm very sorry for transgenders, but my opinion is that they should not be admitted to female sport competitions. FIVB must make a decision soon and take action. As I said before, Women's right to play volleyball and all other sports is in danger.

I understand your point, but you make it sound like there are dozens of male players waiting in line to change their sex and take away the places of born female players, it's surely not like that.
For the same reasons you could say that players over 2m are not allowed in women volleyball because they have an advantage over "normal women". Yes, Tiffany may have a physical advantage over many players still, but she said in an interview that after hormone therapy her jump and attack power has decreased immensely. Just let her live her life and do what she loves, it's not like she became a women in order to become volleyball world champion.

EDIT Serdar posted exactly my thoughts in his own words at just the same time :white:

Great minds think alike :drink:

Agguerro

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69

Thursday, February 23rd 2017, 1:22am

Wow.. things have been kicking off here..Just to say I know Tiffany and have played against her and with her in a couple of gay tournaments in Europe , and beyond the controversy its really important to understand that there is a real person, who has struggled for a long time with this feeling of being trapped in the wrong body. Credit to her she has been bold enough to pursue the change, and risk it all in doing so. She has always loved volleyball and being able to freely compete having been recognised and gone through all the scientific testing is a dream come true for her.

This is rather new in a lot of ways to volleyball and so it is normal that opinion is so divided because there are not a lot of personal references for this kind of thing. I guess the most important thing is to wait and see what kind of impact this can have. Of course the notion that she is going to become some volleyball beast playing against women is just ridiculous - volleyball is a team game, no one player will win all the matches, and like all other high impact players, coaches will find a way to get their teams to contain her- that's the beauty of sport, and that's what we want to see. She is 32 years old, its not like she is very young either!

  • "Angel" is male

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70

Sunday, February 26th 2017, 7:42pm

Oh!! Palmi lost 3-0 and haters are gone :sos: Super this-is-not-fair-but-abuser-who-changed-female-volleyball-forever- (aka Tifanny Pereira) couldnt avoid the defeat of her team. :rolleyes:

71

Sunday, February 26th 2017, 7:50pm

But Tiffanny still scored 18 points...2nd best score of her team was Lestini with 8. If Tiffany was not there the loss would be even worst for them.

And remember, just because someone does not agree with you, you should not call them haters, that is childish.

Grow Up.

SHAME

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72

Sunday, February 26th 2017, 7:51pm

Oh!! Palmi lost 3-0 and haters are gone :sos: Super this-is-not-fair-but-abuser-who-changed-female-volleyball-forever- (aka Tifanny Pereira) couldnt avoid the defeat of her team. :rolleyes:

Actually this isn't true. I heard on the TV news the president of Millenium Volley Brescia said they're against Tiffany's presence in the league and made a joke about signing 3 trans players and getting the promotion this way... :rolleyes:

I'm with Tiffany: she made me watch the first A2 match since always. I don't remember myself watching a single A2 match before Palmi-Trento. :D
"Voglio i tuoi occhi quando sognerai per farmi rimanere qui"
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- Emma :heart: :love:

Kk15

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73

Sunday, February 26th 2017, 8:17pm

I must admit, though, that I'm a bit disappointed that this question went so viral even outside the volleyball world (at least in Italy).

Don't misunderstood me: it's an important argument and something like that will probably happen again in the future in other sports, so it'd good that it's not only a 'volleyball argument', but I feel that it went viral not because 'it's right to speak about it', but because it's treated like gossip, something everybody want to give their opinion on, something 'juicy' (as it was the 'kicking off' of Zaytsev, Travica, Sabbi and Randazzo, for example).

I'm sure that now there are people in Italy that knows about Tiffany but have no idea who is Giannelli :(

  • "DukeShinnabe" is male

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74

Monday, February 27th 2017, 8:39pm

20th round

Soverato - Cisterna 3-0 ( 25-14 25-18 25-14 )
Manfredini 12, Travaglini 11, Karakasheva 10 // Ventura Ferreira 13, Maruotti 5

Pesaro - Mondovì 3-0 ( 25-19 25-15 25-18 )
Kiosi 14, Santini 13, Mastrodicasa 11 // Bici 12, D'Odorico 11, Nomikou 6

Filottrano - Brescia 3-1 ( 25-20 25-23 18-25 27-25 )
Vanzurova 24, Cogliandro 13, Scuka 13 // Baldi 19, Martinelli 15, Viganò 15

Trento - Settimo Torinese 3-2 ( 25-27 27-25 21-25 25-10 15-13 )
Aricò 32, Kijakova 17, Rebora 12 // Akrari 20, Biganzoli 13, Bisio 11

Caserta - Legnano 1-3 ( 23-25 25-22 12-25 23-25 )
Mio Bertolo 19, Pascucci 14, Strobbe 12 // Mingardi 22, Grigolo 15, Coneo 13

Chieri - Palmì 3-0 ( 25-20 25-22 25-18 )
Nenkovska 19, Caneva 11, Serena 11, Leggs 11 // Tifanny 18, Lestini 8, Moretti 7

San Giovanni in Marignano - Olbia 3-1 ( 22-25 25-19 25-20 33-31 )
Saguatti 25, Vyazovik 19, Agostinetto 12 // Angelina 26, Villani 17, Tangini 13

STANDINGS
1. Filottrano 55
2. Pesaro 48
3. Legnano 42
4. Trento 36
5. Settimo Torinese 34
6. Soverato 32
7. Chieri 29
8. Brescia 28
9. San Giovanni in Marignano 28
10. Palmì 26
11. Olbia 22
12. Caserta 15
13. Mondovì 14
14. Cisterna 10

SHAME

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75

Friday, March 3rd 2017, 3:38pm

Tiffany is everywhere on TV. She's way more famous than Lo Bianco. :lol:
"Voglio i tuoi occhi quando sognerai per farmi rimanere qui"
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  • "DukeShinnabe" is male

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76

Monday, March 6th 2017, 7:50pm

21th round

Mondovì - Soverato 0-3 ( 19-25 15-25 22-25 )
Bici 13, Nomikou 9, Borgogno 8 // Manfredini 17, Karakasheva 13, Zanotto 11

Legnano - Pesaro 0-3 ( 24-26 23-25 23-25 )
Mingardi 21, Grigolo 12, Coneo 7 // Kiosi 13, Degradi 11, Mastrodicasa 9

Settimo Torinese - Filottrano 1-3 ( 16-25 19-25 25-21 24-26 )
Akrari 15, Vilcu 13, Bisio 12 // Vanzurova 22, Cogliandro 16, Negrini 11, Mazzaro 11

Olbia - Trento 3-0 ( 26-24 25-20 25-17 )
Angelina 24, Villani 16, Tangini 7 // Aricò 12, Moncada 8, Kijakova 7

Cisterna - Caserta 0-3 ( 15-25 20-25 21-25 )
Ventura Ferreira 17, Barboni 11 // Crittenden 15, Pascucci 11, Mio Bertolo 11

San Giovanni in Marignano - Chieri 3-0 ( 25-19 25-18 26-24 )
Agostinetto 16, Vyazovik 14, Giuliodori 13 // Serena 10, Nenkovska 10

Palmì - Brescia ( not played )


STANDINGS
1. Filottrano 58
2. Pesaro 51
3. Legnano 42
4. Trento 36
5. Soverato 35
6. Settimo Torinese 34
7. San Giovanni in Marignano 31
8. Chieri 29
9. Brescia 28 *
10. Palmì 26 *
11. Olbia 25
12. Caserta 18
13. Mondovì 14
14. Cisterna 10

SHAME

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77

Sunday, March 12th 2017, 4:57pm

I found a link for Palmi-Brescia. Go Tiffany! :super: Smash the opponent! :cheesy:
"Voglio i tuoi occhi quando sognerai per farmi rimanere qui"
"...come la terra la pioggia d'estate"
"Io ti ho coperto le spalle, scoprendo tutto il mio cuore"
- Emma :heart: :love:

Toguttt

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78

Sunday, March 12th 2017, 5:26pm

I found a link for Palmi-Brescia. Go Tiffany! :super: Smash the opponent! :cheesy:


Can you write the link please? Thanks

SHAME

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79

Sunday, March 12th 2017, 5:41pm

I found a link for Palmi-Brescia. Go Tiffany! :super: Smash the opponent! :cheesy:


Can you write the link please? Thanks

Sorry, I lost it along the way. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtZ9Y6uJSRM
"Voglio i tuoi occhi quando sognerai per farmi rimanere qui"
"...come la terra la pioggia d'estate"
"Io ti ho coperto le spalle, scoprendo tutto il mio cuore"
- Emma :heart: :love:

Toguttt

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80

Monday, March 13th 2017, 3:03pm

And Tifanny Abreu actually smashed the opponents with 28 points and 57% efficiency in attack.
The opponent team, Brescia, was the one which complained louder about Tifanny playing in a female league. So at the begininng of the match, in the 1st set, the Brazilian transgender was visibly trying to hold back her power making also some forced mistakes in order to look like a normal woman, but then she understood this was not enough to win the match and started to use her male strength properly and hit the ball violently, leaving no chance to Brescia.

Brescia didn't release any comment after the match, but I wouldn't be surprised if they will take legal action against the result of the match.
And it seems no proper checks were done on Tifanny Abreu's level of testosterone. http://www.pu24.it/2017/02/22/volley-tif…sterone/219755/ There's no official document stating that her testosterone is in the limit to play as a woman. The only document stating she is a woman is her Brazilian passport, which is enough according to FIVB but not enough according to the rules established by the International Olympic Committee.

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