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SHAME

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  • "SHAME" is male

Posts: 5,325

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281

Sunday, January 21st 2018, 7:42pm

As long as science says she fits into women's standards, She has the right to play volleyball. She's a good player and, IMHO, her real advantage is that she got used to play against men for years: women's volleyball is slower and less physical. She is a good player, so I don't get the point banning trans players: they have to be good volleyball players to make the difference. Being born as men means nothing if they can't play well volleyball.
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282

Sunday, January 21st 2018, 8:03pm

As long as science says she fits into women's standards, She has the right to play volleyball. She's a good player and, IMHO, her real advantage is that she got used to play against men for years: women's volleyball is slower and less physical. She is a good player, so I don't get the point banning trans players: they have to be good volleyball players to make the difference. Being born as men means nothing if they can't play well volleyball.


...but can she get pregnant though? It's practically the worst disadvantage of being a woman in sports. Your career may depend on your choice to bear a child. I mean don't look at me with a surprised face. Serena Williams would've won more grand slams if she didn't decide to become a mom. :whistle:

Anyway... I am actually against banning but there should be some kind of regulations in place to avoid overpopulation of transgendered women in a certain team. It's still a women's division nonetheless no matter how you slice the cake.
Favorite players: M: Maxim Mikhaylov, Murilo, Serginho, Aaron Russell, Otavio, Simone Giannelli, Ivan Zaytsev, Tsvetan Sokolov, Michał Kubiak, Mariusz Wlazly, Pawel Zagummy W: Sheilla, Zhu Ting, Natalia, Fe Garay, Fofao, Gabi, Thaisa, Foluke Akinradewo, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Carli Lloyd, Fabi, Natalia Goncharova, Yuko Sano, Saoris Kimura and Sakoda

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Rains_of_Castamere" (Jan 21st 2018, 8:11pm)


283

Sunday, January 21st 2018, 8:46pm

As long as science says she fits into women's standards, She has the right to play volleyball. She's a good player and, IMHO, her real advantage is that she got used to play against men for years: women's volleyball is slower and less physical. She is a good player, so I don't get the point banning trans players: they have to be good volleyball players to make the difference. Being born as men means nothing if they can't play well volleyball.


...but can she get pregnant though? It's practically the worst disadvantage of being a woman in sports. Your career may depend on your choice to bear a child. I mean don't look at me with a surprised face. Serena Williams would've won more grand slams if she didn't decide to become a mom. :whistle:

Anyway... I am actually against banning but there should be some kind of regulations in place to avoid overpopulation of transgendered women in a certain team. It's still a women's division nonetheless no matter how you slice the cake.


So you're basically saying men are in better position in life in any professional field because they don't have to give birth? Tiffany can't have a child, but what about some other players who also can't have a child because of a medical condition.. they also have an advantage before others?

284

Sunday, January 21st 2018, 8:47pm

Amd btw transgender women are still women.. referring to your last sentence

285

Sunday, January 21st 2018, 8:58pm

Being born as men means nothing if they can't play well volleyball.

:drink: Yeah, we have to set that obvious fact aside in order to "what if" our way to oblivion
...

Posted by ZodiacTTT: "Sidenote: Ugly japs trying to cheat in the set 2 is just so typical of them :down:" Reported as inappropriate but condoned by moderators who enjoy watching grumpy old men disrespect young women. Typical.

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About me: Favorite teams: M: USA, Serbia, Italy,Russia, Perugia, PGE Skra, Taubate W: Brazil, Japan, Serbia, wherever club Queen Sheilla is at...

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Location: End of the f****** world

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286

Sunday, January 21st 2018, 9:02pm

As long as science says she fits into women's standards, She has the right to play volleyball. She's a good player and, IMHO, her real advantage is that she got used to play against men for years: women's volleyball is slower and less physical. She is a good player, so I don't get the point banning trans players: they have to be good volleyball players to make the difference. Being born as men means nothing if they can't play well volleyball.


...but can she get pregnant though? It's practically the worst disadvantage of being a woman in sports. Your career may depend on your choice to bear a child. I mean don't look at me with a surprised face. Serena Williams would've won more grand slams if she didn't decide to become a mom. :whistle:

Anyway... I am actually against banning but there should be some kind of regulations in place to avoid overpopulation of transgendered women in a certain team. It's still a women's division nonetheless no matter how you slice the cake.


So you're basically saying men are in better position in life in any professional field because they don't have to give birth? Tiffany can't have a child, but what about some other players who also can't have a child because of a medical condition.. they also have an advantage before others?


What about it? Is it not real? Volleyball is actually one of the pretty rare cases where women are paid more than men.

And about infertility... Did you know that is a serious sign of endometrial cancer when a woman cannot get pregnant? I know my stuff. Thanks for the tip though.
Favorite players: M: Maxim Mikhaylov, Murilo, Serginho, Aaron Russell, Otavio, Simone Giannelli, Ivan Zaytsev, Tsvetan Sokolov, Michał Kubiak, Mariusz Wlazly, Pawel Zagummy W: Sheilla, Zhu Ting, Natalia, Fe Garay, Fofao, Gabi, Thaisa, Foluke Akinradewo, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Carli Lloyd, Fabi, Natalia Goncharova, Yuko Sano, Saoris Kimura and Sakoda

saishuu

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Posts: 2,005

Favourite Team: BRA (M/F); Trentino, Minas Tênis Clube

Favourite Players: André Heller, Dante, Serginho, Giba, Murilo, Lucarelli, Kaziyski, Sokolov, N'Gapeth, Urnaut; Fê Garay, Fabi, Logan Tom, Kim Yeon-Koung, Kosheleva

Location: Ceará, Brazil

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287

Sunday, January 21st 2018, 9:03pm

As long as science says she fits into women's standards, She has the right to play volleyball. She's a good player and, IMHO, her real advantage is that she got used to play against men for years: women's volleyball is slower and less physical. She is a good player, so I don't get the point banning trans players: they have to be good volleyball players to make the difference. Being born as men means nothing if they can't play well volleyball.
...but can she get pregnant though? It's practically the worst disadvantage of being a woman in sports. Your career may depend on your choice to bear a child. I mean don't look at me with a surprised face. Serena Williams would've won more grand slams if she didn't decide to become a mom. :whistle:

Anyway... I am actually against banning but there should be some kind of regulations in place to avoid overpopulation of transgendered women in a certain team. It's still a women's division nonetheless no matter how you slice the cake.
Wow, the sexism here is so strong that there's not even a point in trying to present a counter argument.
Gold - European Championship 2013 (M) Prediction Game
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Posts: 1,896

About me: Favorite teams: M: USA, Serbia, Italy,Russia, Perugia, PGE Skra, Taubate W: Brazil, Japan, Serbia, wherever club Queen Sheilla is at...

"Be careful how you treat people. What you do to others has a funny way of coming back on you..."

Location: End of the f****** world

Occupation: Prostitution... Do you believe me? :-*

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288

Sunday, January 21st 2018, 9:13pm

As long as science says she fits into women's standards, She has the right to play volleyball. She's a good player and, IMHO, her real advantage is that she got used to play against men for years: women's volleyball is slower and less physical. She is a good player, so I don't get the point banning trans players: they have to be good volleyball players to make the difference. Being born as men means nothing if they can't play well volleyball.
...but can she get pregnant though? It's practically the worst disadvantage of being a woman in sports. Your career may depend on your choice to bear a child. I mean don't look at me with a surprised face. Serena Williams would've won more grand slams if she didn't decide to become a mom. :whistle:

Anyway... I am actually against banning but there should be some kind of regulations in place to avoid overpopulation of transgendered women in a certain team. It's still a women's division nonetheless no matter how you slice the cake.
Wow, the sexism here is so strong that there's not even a point in trying to present a counter argument.


I'm not sure if you know the meaning of sexism so I guess I just have to leave this one right here.

What's sexist about pointing the FACT that Serena Williams would've won more grand slams and probably even double Nadal and Djokovic's grand slams? :lol:
Favorite players: M: Maxim Mikhaylov, Murilo, Serginho, Aaron Russell, Otavio, Simone Giannelli, Ivan Zaytsev, Tsvetan Sokolov, Michał Kubiak, Mariusz Wlazly, Pawel Zagummy W: Sheilla, Zhu Ting, Natalia, Fe Garay, Fofao, Gabi, Thaisa, Foluke Akinradewo, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Carli Lloyd, Fabi, Natalia Goncharova, Yuko Sano, Saoris Kimura and Sakoda

289

Sunday, January 21st 2018, 9:47pm

As long as science says she fits into women's standards, She has the right to play volleyball. She's a good player and, IMHO, her real advantage is that she got used to play against men for years: women's volleyball is slower and less physical. She is a good player, so I don't get the point banning trans players: they have to be good volleyball players to make the difference. Being born as men means nothing if they can't play well volleyball.


...but can she get pregnant though? It's practically the worst disadvantage of being a woman in sports. Your career may depend on your choice to bear a child. I mean don't look at me with a surprised face. Serena Williams would've won more grand slams if she didn't decide to become a mom. :whistle:

Anyway... I am actually against banning but there should be some kind of regulations in place to avoid overpopulation of transgendered women in a certain team. It's still a women's division nonetheless no matter how you slice the cake.


So you're basically saying men are in better position in life in any professional field because they don't have to give birth? Tiffany can't have a child, but what about some other players who also can't have a child because of a medical condition.. they also have an advantage before others?


What about it? Is it not real? Volleyball is actually one of the pretty rare cases where women are paid more than men.

And about infertility... Did you know that is a serious sign of endometrial cancer when a woman cannot get pregnant? I know my stuff. Thanks for the tip though.


Hahahah.. Endometrial cancer is not the only reason for infertility.. Whatever the reason, I asked you a simple question.. you're saying Tifanny can't have a child and she has an advantage.. do you think other women players who can't have a child have an advantage too

beri

Professional

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290

Sunday, January 21st 2018, 9:59pm

The thing is Tiffany surely has an advantage that no other bioligical female has not only physically which only factor is not only sex but also stuff like race can affect. She also played in mens league for years as SHAME said and that is simply way different level. Saying this doesn't make you transphobic. I'm not saying we should ban transgenders (which would be disgusting thing) or make Tiffany play wth men again however her case is quite less then ideal imo and personally I cant even find a solution for this.

291

Monday, January 22nd 2018, 4:55am

surprised to hear that sheilla is so ignorant. she used to go out with mari steinbrecher so she should know better.

i think the IOC/international standards are that the TG athlete must have had cross-gender surgery, have been undergoing hormonal therapy for a few years, and that her testosterone levels are controlled at a certain level. i assume she’s within those parameters and thus cleared to compete as a woman. the thing is, is she any stronger or faster than other women of her height? does she jump higher than thaisa or fabiana, who are about the same height? from what i have seen, she looks much stronger than the other women players.

Agguerro

Intermediate

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Favourite Team: Sada Cruzeiro, Brazil NT (M and F), China F team (2004-2008), Italy F team (2007), Chinese W team (current)

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292

Monday, January 22nd 2018, 11:07am

Tiffany

Just catching on to this discussion now.... interesting points being raised.


I was a bit shocked by the interview by Sheila - form what is publicised about her person, I always assumed she was a bit more level headed - some of her comments were very rude actually - almost like some of the vile things Yelena Isimbaeva - another very decorated athlete, started making after retiring. There is a line between sharing an opinion being an ambassador. cue - the issues in tennis as well at the moment with Margaret Court's comments.

I agree about legislation being put in place for the future, as should normally be the case - a new phenomenon has arrived (and I say 'new' loosely here), so we need further clarity on it because obviously more transgender athletes who have not had the confidence or courage of Tiffany will no doubt want to also compete. Frankly i think the IOC regulations as they stand are clear enough - but maybe it is more about education- as many people don't understand this and so people need to understand why the regulations are fair. I think baseless points like "she is stronger", faster etc are pointless- no-one has done any investigations on her to suggest this, and it would be quite difficult to know this. She doesnt hit the ball any harder than other women currently - I am not so sure what people see in this regard - frankly currently Boskovic, Mihajlovic, Zhu Ting, Tandara etc seem to have more velocity on their hits and better vertical jumping. Of course it is normal for people to say these things because we are still in the early stages.

We also need to understand that as much as we think gender is so clearly defined, a lot of apparently 'normal' men and women have hormonal abnormalities and atypical gender we don't get to see or know about, e.g what about hermaphorodites? and if corrective surgery is done early on is it very different? Having gender dysphoria and changing your Gender is just one of many issues. In fact maybe lack of understanding of the extremely difficult process of this change might be better to understand so there are no immature comments like someone is going to do it on purpose just to have an 'advantage'..

The Brazilian team situation is not one where there is an issue anyway. Even if Tiffany plays, its not like they have lots of ready opposite players - Tandara is practically on her own. There are young potential players, and its not like they will lose their chance... They are still going to have their chance. Tiffany is not exactly young. And if she makes it because of her volleyball SKILLS, then what is their problem? Do men somehow possess better skills in volleyball than women? Even if it was power, its not like she can simply make it because she can hit the ball hard is it? These statements really put down the sport like anyone can just turn up and play at a high level!

On the whole having children and Serena idea - for centuries women have been fighting so they are not seen as incapacitated or unable or somehow dsabled by this, bringing it into this discussion somehow sounds archaic.. its not really the road to go down....

293

Monday, January 22nd 2018, 11:48pm

agguerro, certainly people, specially the women athletes involved, are entitled to question the fairness of competing against athletes that might have an unfair advantage. and tiffany, if anything, is much taller than the average female volleyball player.

and look at the situation in the women's 800 m in track & field (athletics), which is certainly not satisfactory for the athletes involved, when quite a few (maybe 3 or more) intersexed athletes are competing and winning gold medals -- even though they are hyperandrogenous, with testosterone levels well above what's "normal" for XX women.

Posts: 1,896

About me: Favorite teams: M: USA, Serbia, Italy,Russia, Perugia, PGE Skra, Taubate W: Brazil, Japan, Serbia, wherever club Queen Sheilla is at...

"Be careful how you treat people. What you do to others has a funny way of coming back on you..."

Location: End of the f****** world

Occupation: Prostitution... Do you believe me? :-*

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294

Tuesday, January 23rd 2018, 12:12am

I have a question to ask and answer with everyone about the 7 point ranked players in Brazil....

1. So who are they? I know Fabiana, Thaisa,Sheilla, Jaque, Tandara, Natalia and Dani Lins are. Should anyone care to add the whole list?

2. Who among them do you consider the players that still feels like a 7-point ranked player? In my opinion Jaque is nowhere close to the same player she once was. Sheilla is a mystery. Fabiana can be inconsistent. Thaisa is still recovering and everyone's getting older. Can't see their status should still affect the balance of the team and the superliga but that's just my opinion.

3. We have to also ask who are the players from the non-7 point rank who deserves to be in their place? Bia to me seems stronger than Fabiana now. Even half of the players from Rio should be considered a 7 point. Juciely, Roberta, Gabi and Monique should probably qualify as one of the strongest players in Brazil. :white:

4. And there's Tiffany. What do you think of her level? In my opinion... she's stronger than some of the current 7 point ranked players. I'm not sure how Brazil should classify it since her case is uncommon even among her peers from the transgender community.

5. How does the foreign player limit affect the seven point ranked players and vice versa? I'm not really sure how to answer this so I will just leave it right here who is more knowledgeable with the league and its players.

6. Why do players from the 7 point rank hate the idea of the label on them? I think the problem is players like Sheilla, Jaque and Fabiana want stability in their lives while working as volleyball players. They can go to a club that could provide that to them but... the system doesn't allow them to play to their choice which should be illegal considering.. Jaque is married to Murilo. Murilo is employed as a SESI player and now that SESI of women's volleyball is just a minnows club today... Why would Jaque play in a team which may just have no chance to play in the playoffs? :rolll:

Thanks to everyone for answering the questions with me. :win:
Favorite players: M: Maxim Mikhaylov, Murilo, Serginho, Aaron Russell, Otavio, Simone Giannelli, Ivan Zaytsev, Tsvetan Sokolov, Michał Kubiak, Mariusz Wlazly, Pawel Zagummy W: Sheilla, Zhu Ting, Natalia, Fe Garay, Fofao, Gabi, Thaisa, Foluke Akinradewo, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Carli Lloyd, Fabi, Natalia Goncharova, Yuko Sano, Saoris Kimura and Sakoda

This post has been edited 9 times, last edit by "Rains_of_Castamere" (Jan 23rd 2018, 12:53am)


295

Tuesday, January 23rd 2018, 12:48am

I have a question to ask and answer with everyone about the 7 point ranked players in Brazil....

1. So who are they? I know Fabiana, Thaisa,Sheilla, Jaque, Tandara, Natalia and Dani Lins are. Should anyone care to add the whole list?

2. Who among them do you consider the players that still feels like a 7-point ranked player? In my opinion Jaque is nowhere close to the same player she once was. Sheilla is a mystery. Fabiana can be inconsistent. Thaisa is still recovering and everyone's getting older. Can't see their status should still affect the balance of the team and the superliga but that's just my opinion.

3. We have to also ask who are the players from the non-7 point rank who deserves to be in their place? Bia to me seems stronger than Fabiana now. Even half of the players from Rio should be considered a 7 point. Juciely, Roberta, Gabi and Monique should probably qualify as one of the strongest players in Brazil. :white:

4. And there's Tiffany. What do you think of her level? In my opinion... she's stronger than some of the current 7 point ranked players. I'm not sure how Brazil should classify it since her case is uncommon even among her peers from the transgender community.

5. How does the foreign player limit affect the seven point ranked players and vice versa? I'm not really sure how to answer this so I will just leave it right here who is more knowledgeable with the league and its players.

6. Why do players from the 7 point rank hate the idea of the label on them? I think the problem is players like Sheilla, Jaque and Fabiana wants stability in their lives while working as volleyball players. They can go to a club that could provide that to them but... the system doesn't allow them to play to their choice which should be illegal considering.. Jaque is married to Murilo. Murilo is employed as a SESI player and now that SESI of women's volleyball is just a minnows club today... Why would Jaque play in a team which may just have no chance to play in the playoffs? :rolll:

Thanks to everyone for answering the questions with me. :win:
I think Fe Garay is 7 pt player we well, isn't she?

But I do agree with your point. The point seems to be misleading now considering 80% of those who have 7 pts are underperforming so far this year. That is why Rio has never had any problem winning the title without stars from NT because they have the best back ups which seem to be always dominant on the Superliga. Gabi, Juciely, Roberta, Monique, and not to forget the legendary Fabi -- these players are 7 pts quality players.

The problem with 7 pts players being labeled as such is they can't go to the clubs that can pay them their needed salary. /Only big clubs like Rio, Osasco, Praia, and Minas can afford these players. Small clubs can barely survive on buying decent jerseys for their players let alone to hire these huge stars. If these small clubs can pay them, I am sure some of these stars will play with the club. Playing shorter amount of time since there is no chance to play on the playoff and getting paid really well -- that is a dream come true.

Ayra

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296

Tuesday, January 23rd 2018, 4:22am

I have a question to ask and answer with everyone about the 7 point ranked players in Brazil....

1. So who are they? I know Fabiana, Thaisa,Sheilla, Jaque, Tandara, Natalia and Dani Lins are. Should anyone care to add the whole list?

2. Who among them do you consider the players that still feels like a 7-point ranked player? In my opinion Jaque is nowhere close to the same player she once was. Sheilla is a mystery. Fabiana can be inconsistent. Thaisa is still recovering and everyone's getting older. Can't see their status should still affect the balance of the team and the superliga but that's just my opinion.

3. We have to also ask who are the players from the non-7 point rank who deserves to be in their place? Bia to me seems stronger than Fabiana now. Even half of the players from Rio should be considered a 7 point. Juciely, Roberta, Gabi and Monique should probably qualify as one of the strongest players in Brazil. :white:

4. And there's Tiffany. What do you think of her level? In my opinion... she's stronger than some of the current 7 point ranked players. I'm not sure how Brazil should classify it since her case is uncommon even among her peers from the transgender community.

5. How does the foreign player limit affect the seven point ranked players and vice versa? I'm not really sure how to answer this so I will just leave it right here who is more knowledgeable with the league and its players.

6. Why do players from the 7 point rank hate the idea of the label on them? I think the problem is players like Sheilla, Jaque and Fabiana want stability in their lives while working as volleyball players. They can go to a club that could provide that to them but... the system doesn't allow them to play to their choice which should be illegal considering.. Jaque is married to Murilo. Murilo is employed as a SESI player and now that SESI of women's volleyball is just a minnows club today... Why would Jaque play in a team which may just have no chance to play in the playoffs? :rolll:

Thanks to everyone for answering the questions with me. :win:


The players ranked with 7 points are Fabiana, Sheilla, Dani lins, Natalia, Gabi, Fe Garay, Jaque, Thaisa and Tandara. I remember last year they came out with a letter directed to CBV. They even brought CBV to the court if I'm not mistaken. I think Fabi from Rio should also be ranked 7 considering that she's one of the best, if not the best, libero in Brazil.

Regarding question number 5, I think the direct competitors of the 7 point ranked players are the foreigners. The highest ranked players and the foreign players are quite expensive so there might be some competition on who gets a space in one of the clubs along with a high salary.

The players hate being ranked because they said it limits their choices. But, I think even without the ranking they'll have a hard time looking for a club because they are so expensive especially the 2x Olympic champions. Their salaries should correspond to what they can do now and not what they did in the past.

297

Wednesday, January 24th 2018, 12:12am

how many foreign players are allowed in each team? is it two?

So far, Nicole Fawcett, Nadja Ninkovic and Angela Leyva are having a successful season.

Sosa, Venegas, Hooker, Pena, LLoyd, Palacio are the ones that come to my mind that are also playing in Brazil.

saishuu

Master

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Posts: 2,005

Favourite Team: BRA (M/F); Trentino, Minas Tênis Clube

Favourite Players: André Heller, Dante, Serginho, Giba, Murilo, Lucarelli, Kaziyski, Sokolov, N'Gapeth, Urnaut; Fê Garay, Fabi, Logan Tom, Kim Yeon-Koung, Kosheleva

Location: Ceará, Brazil

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298

Wednesday, January 24th 2018, 12:24am

^ 2, yes.

There's also Skowronska in Barueri and a young Chilean (Pamela Sanabio) in Fluminense.
Gold - European Championship 2013 (M) Prediction Game
Bronze - World Championship 2014 (W) Prediction Game

SoloBlock

Trainee

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299

Wednesday, January 24th 2018, 2:03am

Also Sonja Newcombe is new to Minas with Hooker. They played vs Carlo Lloyd tonight

300

Wednesday, January 24th 2018, 9:31pm

The fact is!

This newly hired foreign players and recent recruits doesnt make competition at braxil... imagine ubeing paid while rhe seadon is on its 10th round!!!! Its not my money but this would create a nation to some brazilian borne athletes who are very eager to fight come tokyo 2020!!!!

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