Russian NT 2016

  • As I thought, Markin was not allowed to play OG from FIVB (source).


    I fully agree with the argument that Max Holt should be banned as well under the given circumstances...


    I fully agree with that too. I read in some Polish newspaper, that American samples from years 2003-2010 were distroyed. And Gatlin at OG is the most embarrassing participation for me.

  • that argument missed the point.


    to answer the question in the article "If this measure is only directed against Russia but no other country?"
    of course, yes. it's designed to punish russia only for running a doping program at the state level. that's
    the whole verdict is about.

    But Max Holt played for a RUSSIAN club :whistle: So more or less he was in the program as well...

  • Yes we do. It was launched in Russian media today
    Grankin/Kobzar
    Mikhailov/Bakun
    Ashchev/Volvich/Volkov A.
    Kliuka/Tetukhin (you know who I mean but I can't learn english version of his surname)/Volkov D.
    Ermakov/Verbov


    But Max Holt played for a RUSSIAN club :whistle: So more or less he was in the program as well...


    So, how about Zaytsev? And, Grankin still in roster.

  • About holt, Is there really confirmation? If it confirms, I agree.

    Yes there is: http://www.usada.org/max-holt-…ti-doping-rule-violation/


    Basically him and Markin are the same case: meldonium being found, but the possibility of having taken it when it still was legal. So I don't find it fair to ban Markin but not Holt because Markin is Russian and Holt is not. Yes, it is state-organised doping and all that, and Holt didn't know what he took, but maybe neither did Markin.

  • Yes there is: http://www.usada.org/max-holt-…ti-doping-rule-violation/


    Basically him and Markin are the same case: meldonium being found, but the possibility of having taken it when it still was legal. So I don't find it fair to ban Markin but not Holt because Markin is Russian and Holt is not. Yes, it is state-organised doping and all that, and Holt didn't know what he took, but maybe neither did Markin.

    Umm, formally speaking, no. Markin was cleared of the allegations under the WADA amnesty, which was implemented for the athletes who tested positive for meldonium between 01 Jan and 01 Mar 2016. Holt doesn't belong to this category and hence should have not been cleared automatically. Could have received a ban but then good job that WADA is just a subsidiary of USADA and sticks religiously to what the Big Brother tells to do. What I'm saying is that Holt could have taken the drug say in April. It's over the counter in Moscow (state sponsored doping in action) so could have bought it to strengthen himself for the NT season well knowing that there would be no consequences.


    Markin was banned via an unofficial political decision, just as I mentioned earlier. The idea is not to tackle the issue of doping etc but to reduce the media exposure over the Olympics. Markin never thought about appealing by the way, for which he is fully entitled. Let us now watch the Zaytsev&Grankin saga now.

  • OK, I read the link. It told me that meldonium was found when Holt played in Russia. He used moldenium before it became illegal substance.


    Markin was clear for that, and no banning for Russia from OGQT. http://www.fivb.org/EN/Medical…lexander_RUS_20161428.pdf


    In the same way, Holt shouldn't be punished, too. Markin was banned because of IOC measure.


    IOC banned athletes even though the punishment was done. I think that this is about Russia punishment. It's not about doping issue.

  • If that was program.. what will happen with Russians from Sochi who have Medals?


    I understand that Isinbaeva can take part in Rio at least.

    Isinbaeva is clearly out. She may have been a super best athlete in the world at some point but there are other important things in life.


    The Sochi outcome has two scenarios.


    (A) The Dick-McLaren group carry on with their research (=finding new witnesses and confirming the disappearing positive cases + pressure via English-speaking media). Russia in denial, lawsuits, wikileaks etc. May review several medal decisions but most likely the talk will be about future competitions in Russia as proving the McLaren report is very uneasy. And risky as may affect other countries, via a domino effect.


    (B) This is it, turn the page. The whole business was about what we've already seen.


    The IOC would rather prefer the (B) option so they will seek a compromise, just like the one they achieved regarding the blanket ban query. In any case, the course of action will depend on various big non-sport events, of which the most important is of course the presidential elections in USofA. I doubt the doping business will carry on after the arrival of the new administration: this useful tool will be put on the shelf until a new task comes up.



    Regarding the Russian NT squad, I think that things look better than what they could have been. It is very relieving to have a couple of strong and useful opps, functional Verbov and Tetyukhin and three ambitious youngsters. The lack of experience of the three may obviously play against the team... but they clearly want to play and win. I would of course prefer to have Berezhko instead of Ermakov, but this is it. Tactically, we are going to see little of middle attacks, I expect, with Bakun-Mikhaylov-Klyuka being most used attackers and best servers. What Volkov D and Volkov A are planning to deliver is unclear as yet, but may be very sound in case of Volkov D. There is a good chance that we see Max playing OH as well as Volkov D playing alongside Klyuka, just as they did in Fakel. Overall, I think Alekno made a brave but a good choice.

  • Not really:


    "Holt, 29, tested positive for meldonium as the result of an out-of-competition urine sample he provided on June 10, 2016."
    This is after 01 March AFAIC. Of note, USADA is investigating the situation in Dinamo Moscow. I guess they're talking about Moscow, Idaho?


    What is Zaytsev /Grankin saga?

    Well, both should have received meldonium as the USADA link says. May get tested in Rio and then appear in Daily Mail.

  • Umm, formally speaking, no. Markin was cleared of the allegations under the WADA amnesty, which was implemented for the athletes who tested positive for meldonium between 01 Jan and 01 Mar 2016. Holt doesn't belong to this category and hence should have not been cleared automatically. Could have received a ban but then good job that WADA is just a subsidiary of USADA and sticks religiously to what the Big Brother tells to do. What I'm saying is that Holt could have taken the drug say in April. It's over the counter in Moscow (state sponsored doping in action) so could have bought it to strengthen himself for the NT season well knowing that there would be no consequences.


    Markin was banned via an unofficial political decision, just as I mentioned earlier. The idea is not to tackle the issue of doping etc but to reduce the media exposure over the Olympics. Markin never thought about appealing by the way, for which he is fully entitled. Let us now watch the Zaytsev&Grankin saga now.

    So eventually it is even more unfair than I thought: Markin is banned because of being citizen in a country that dopes its athletes. Holt has a worse case of doping but gets away with it :thumbdown:


    From what I understand, both were cleared due to this "no fault or negligence" rule. Markin most likely took meldonium when it was still legal, Holt might have taken it when it was already illegal, which brings us back to the we-don't-know-enough-about-it problem concerning meldonium.


    This is the big dilemma in the story: of course banning Russia as a whole would have been a suitable punishment for the system, but at the same time it would destroy the soul of some hundred athletes who are not guilty of what has happened, who in a way were victims of the system as well. I feel really sorry for Markin, it's just not fair from an individual point of view that he is banned and Holt is not.


  • This is exactly what I thought



    "The sample that tested positive was obtained on June 10, but Holt evidently took the meldonium in December before it was made illegal in January of this year. A doctor for the Russian club team Dynamo Moscow prescribed the drug to Holt and some of his Dynamo teammates, assuring them it was legal. The players only realized after the fact that they had been given meldonium."


    http://www.flovolleyball.tv/ar…ts-positive-for-meldonium


    And yes, Markin is banned because he's Russian and that's very sad

  • So eventually it is even more unfair than I thought: Markin is banned because of being citizen in a country that dopes its athletes. Holt has a worse case of doping but gets away with it :thumbdown:


    From what I understand, both were cleared due to this "no fault or negligence" rule. Markin most likely took meldonium when it was still legal, Holt might have taken it when it was already illegal, which brings us back to the we-don't-know-enough-about-it problem concerning meldonium.


    This is the big dilemma in the story: of course banning Russia as a whole would have been a suitable punishment for the system, but at the same time it would destroy the soul of some hundred athletes who are not guilty of what has happened, who in a way were victims of the system as well. I feel really sorry for Markin, it's just not fair from an individual point of view that he is banned and Holt is not.

    Meldonium is not a unique case when the pharmacokinetics of the newbie on the doping list was unclear. This happened before with other drugs and had meldonium been a performance enhancer, the decision would have been tougher, no doubts here. What the story shows truly well is the reality of Russian sports kingdom where the loyalists have taken over the experts. Here is an interesting duality. Those are the people who know well whom they should not trust but unable to prevent the generic used throughout all local sports from being included into the doping list - essentially for improving the erectile function in pigs. If you take a thorough look at the blanket ban ideology, Russia is not in a position to complain... as it has supported it earlier. So in a way, Rus sports administration looks extremely myopic - but at the same time they were smart enough to support Ari Graca and not Doug Beal for FIVB presidency, which looked a bit bizarre at that point.

  • it's said that Holt took meldonium in December 2015, before it became illegal, same as Markin.


    usada


    the fact that he was tested positive in June:


    While several studies are currently being carried out by WADA-accredited laboratories, preliminary results show that long-term excretion of meldonium can take weeks or months, it said.


    As a result, it is possible that athletes who took meldonium before Jan. 1 “could not reasonably have known or suspected” that the drug would still be present in their bodies after that date, WADA said.


    “In these circumstances WADA considers that there may be grounds for no fault or negligence on the part of the athlete,” the statement said.


    http://olympics.nbcsports.com/…world-anti-doping-agency/


  • It says so on the web page but in reality the meldonium which was detected in June doesn't say, "Hello, gents, I had been administered on 12 Dec 2015 when I was still a legal drug!" It is pretty easy to resolve whether Holt had taken it on 09 June or 10 May or perhaps even 10 April but the samples from 12 Dec, 12 Jan and 12 Feb would be pretty much indistinguishable. Nevertheless, it is very important to believe to what Holt and McLaren say very religiously because these are our guys, the holy crusaders in the night that is dark and full of terrors.


    Just realised that had Markin been banned by FIVB/IOC he would have been able to sue them as he's officially clean. So this is not a "FIVB wrote Markin a letter" story and should involve an intimate talk with the home federation and then the coaches.


  • It says so on the web page but in reality the meldonium which was detected in June doesn't say, "Hello, gents, I had been administered on 12 Dec 2015 when I was still a legal drug!" It is pretty easy to resolve whether Holt had taken it on 09 June or 10 May or perhaps even 10 April but the samples from 12 Dec, 12 Jan and 12 Feb would be pretty much indistinguishable. Nevertheless, it is very important to believe to what Holt and McLaren say very religiously because these are our guys, the holy crusaders in the night that is dark and full of terrors.


    Just realised that had Markin been banned by FIVB/IOC he would have been able to sue them as he's officially clean. So this is not a "FIVB wrote Markin a letter" story and should involve an intimate talk with the home federation and then the coaches.


    it's only a tiny trace in holt's sample, which is not likely if he had taken it recently.


    and markin can't sue fivb/ioc because as mentioned above, it's not a doping ban. actually suing the russian government is the logical choice.


    that said, the better solution is to allow him to play but not under russia flag. that would also mean that the whole team can't play under russia flag. this would probably force him to voluntarily forfeit the spot to save the team.