CEV Men’s European Championship 2019 - hosts France, Slovenia, Belgium and the Netherlands

Quote from FlyingCrow

Don't think that possible for a country that's only 28 years old, mate.

Maybe to provide some insight from my point of view.

Slovenia only has a population of ~2M, while Poland and Russia have 38M and 146M, respectively.

No matter how you look at it it's a great feat for Slovenia's NT to achieve such results. No need to downplay their achievement by saying they never achieved any great results in the past. Every team has to start somewhere and while their team has had the same core for several tournaments, this is probably their peak performance, also due to the outstanding support from the stands.

Poland and Russia are World-class teams that are always in running for the top finishes while Slovenia is a good team with a chance to upset at best.

Also, don't forget that Slovenia qualified for VNL (over Germany and Russia, if I remember correctly) but was denied competing due to the change in the competition.

Slovenia also had a positive record against Poland at two previous ECH. While they lost in a tough OQT group the narrative of having a positive record was heavily emphasised in the media and team environment. While you might say that is not important and only the most recent results count, then I would counter that by that logic also Slovenia's only most recent results count but we both know that isn't so.

And to briefly touch on the game against North Macedonia. Maybe you could slightly compare yesterdays game against Russia's QF approach against Slovenia. Both were very confident and were most likely already thinking ahead about their next opponent in the next round. Russia had every right after a clean 3:0 victory in the group and Poland has been quite cocky, at least the media portrayed it so.

Some goes for Slovenia, when they were already out of the group they underestimated North Macedonia and were only thinking about their group match against Russia. As you said yourself, having a bad day and playing one bad game does not make the losing team bad or the winning team good.

As for the upcoming matches. I think if France plays like they did in the QFs they shouldn't have troubles reaching the Finals. Serbia struggled against Ukraine that were also on verge on winning the 2nd set which could change the flow and results of that game.

I also think that Slovenia, while having a quite miraculous run, will have a hard time continuing their form in the Finals with no home support. Also, in the most recent results, France defeated Slovenia 3:0 in OQT, while it was close from what I remember. Nonetheless, we will see what will happen.

For the 3rd place game I think Poland are the clear favourites.

The results are what they are, lets just enjoy the remaining games and hope for quality volleyball matches.

Edit; Grammar

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Thanks for the reply in details. I agree with some parts of your points. Well, this topic could be subjective, so I am not gonna argue it anymore. Just give out my opinion.

I don't think population could be used as an excuse. What really matters is the population that engages in sports. Otherwise, China and India Men volleyball should be No. 1 and No.2 in the world because their population is No.1 and No.2 in the world.

North Macedoni's population is also about 2M. They rank 131 in world volleyball ranking, but they beat Slovenia at 3:1 in ECH group match a few days ago. Can we make a conclusion that North Macedoni is a strong team? And how many people have guts to jump out to say Slovenia is a strong team at that time?

Like I said, to evaluate a NT, you'd better show me the stats in Olympics, WCH and WC. I agree that Slovenia did not have chances to compete in some tournaments due to the limitation of rules and regulations. Let's take a look at Slovenia's NT performance overall.

They rank at 25th in VNL 2016 and 13th in VNL 2017. They rank 12th in WCH 2018. Plus this year, Slovenia made to ECH final twice. It's their highlight. They got 8-9th place three times, and 13-16th three times as well. Maybe some people can call them a strong team, but I do not think so.

IMHO, my list of active strong teams (Class A teams) is: Brazil, USA, Russia, Poland, Italy, Serbia and France.

The list of the second class teams (Class B teams) is: Argentina, Canada, Iran, Belgium, Bulgaria, Netherlands, Slovenia, Australia

Quote from kyle7in1

Thanks for the reply in details. I agree with some parts of your points. Well, this topic could be subjective, so I am not gonna argue it anymore. Just give out my opinion.

I don't think population could be used as an excuse. What really matters is the population that engages in sports. Otherwise, China and India Men volleyball should be No. 1 and No.2 in the world because their population is No.1 and No.2 in the world.

North Macedoni's population is also about 2M. They rank 131 in world volleyball ranking, but they beat Slovenia at 3:1 in ECH group match a few days ago. Can we make a conclusion that North Macedoni is a strong team? And how many people have guts to jump out to say Slovenia is a strong team at that time?

Like I said, to evaluate a NT, you'd better show me the stats in Olympics, WCH and WC. I agree that Slovenia did not have chances to compete in some tournaments due to the limitation of rules and regulations. Let's take a look at Slovenia's NT performance overall.

They rank at 25th in VNL 2016 and 13th in VNL 2017. They rank 12th in WCH 2018. Plus this year, Slovenia made to ECH final twice. It's their highlight. They got 8-9th place three times, and 13-16th three times as well. Maybe some people can call them a strong team, but I do not think so.

IMHO, my list of active strong teams (Class A teams) is: Brazil, USA, Russia, Poland, Italy, Serbia and France.

The list of the second class teams (Class B teams) is: Argentina, Canada, Iran, Belgium, Bulgaria, Netherlands, Slovenia, Australia

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I don't get that why you think the only criteria to call a team strong is to play semis in OG, WCh or WC? Pol haven't reached semis in almost 40 years, same with France and Serbia. Indeed, with your logic France shouldn't be count as strong team because their only success in FIVB tournaments was reaching semis in 2014 WCh.

Quote from serdar

I don't get that why you think the only criteria to call a team strong is to play semis in OG, WCh or WC? Pol haven't reached semis in almost 40 years, same with France and Serbia. Indeed, with your logic France shouldn't be count as strong team because their only success in FIVB tournaments was reaching semis in 2014 WCh.

Poland got WCH champion twice in a row in 2014 and 2018. Do you know a country called Yugoslavia who got one time Olympics Bronze metal in 1996, one time Olympics champion in 2000, one time runners-up in WCH 1998, one time 4th place in WCH 2002, and one time Bronze metal in WC 2003. Do you have the idea of the relationship of Yugoslavia and Serbia? France got one time Bronze metal in WCH 2002, and one time 4th place in WCH 2014.

Well, since you don't focus on men's volleyball, you probably don't even know the name of players, and you don't even watch Men's club games, It makes no sense to argue with you about men's volleyball.

Quote from kyle7in1

Poland got WCH champion twice in a row in 2014 and 2018. Do you know a country called Yugoslavia who got one time Olympics Bronze metal in 1996, one time Olympics champion in 2000, one time runners-up in WCH 1998, one time 4th place in WCH 2002, and one time Bronze metal in WC 2003. Do you have the idea of the relationship of Yugoslavia and Serbia? France got one time Bronze metal in WCH 2002, and one time 4th place in WCH 2014.

Well, since you don't focus on men's volleyball, you probably don't even know the name of players, and you don't even watch Men's club games, It makes no sense to argue with you about men's volleyball.

Why are you counting down all the results from stone age? I might not be expert at men's volleyball but what I do know is; in sports what matters is the most recent results!

Cuban women volleyball team might be the most successful team based on their history but they are not considered as a strong team just because of their medals 20 years ago.

By the way it is very funny that you brought up Serbia-Yugoslavia topic. Montenegro was part of Yugoslavia as well, does it make them also strong team now based on your criteria?

Having a lot of medals in the PAST only makes you a country with a strong volleyball history but it doesn't mean the team is the strongest right now. Thus, Slovenia is a strong team without much success in the past, which is totally understandable as it is a very new country.

@kyle7in1

I think being a fan already makes you subjective to a degree and sometimes it's hard not to be biased. No need to argue, I wouldn't call this arguing but rather discussing. To address some of your points.

Population number was not an excuse but a fact to present the numbers game. You already partly answered what they should represent yourself. We have to look only at those that engage in the sport. Now I don't have the number of active players in Slovenia, Poland or Russia. I can tell you however that in Slovenia there are 114 club registered at the Volleyball Federation of Slovenia (Slovenska odbojkarska zveza), There are 497 in Poland at the Polish Volleyball Federation (Polski Związek Piłki Siatkowej) and I couldn't find the latest Russian numbers. I checked the site of Volleyball Federation of Russia (Всероссийская Федерация Волейбола) but my russian is not at a level that would let me research that much further. The report I found was from season 2014/2015 but didn't refer the number of registered clubs or players. However, going after the trend that a higher population means more registered clubs, which consequently means more players, we can assume that Russia has even more active clubs and players. While this is no proof of any kind, and doesn't generally apply in sports, purely mathematicaly and statisticaly looking, with a higher number of players it is more likely that among those will be a higher percentage of talented players emerging. Maybe this isn't worded properly but I think it is clear what I mean.

Maybe another example to put it into perspective:

There is one Slovenian player playing in the NHL, Anze Kopitar. North America has more registered hockey players that Slovenia has inhabitants. There are 435 canadian players in the NHL out of 637.000 eligible registrated players at Canadian Hockey Association . That is 0.0683%. One slovenian player out of 180 registered players at Ice Hockey Federation of Slovenia (Hokejska zveza Slovenije) is 0.555%. I think those number speak for themself.

I thought maybe you would like this analogy because you like to stay to facts and stats.

In the end, this doesn't prove anything. That doesn't mean Slovenia has better athlets or that they are inherenthly disadvantaged in competitions.

I, personally however, think that being among top teams in Europe (currently) and being able to compete with the best in the world is a great achievement for the country and its athletes. I think it's fair to praise them for their run in the ECH.

You said yourself, North Macedonia and Slovenia both have a population of ~2M, yet Slovenia is ranked 17th by FIVB and North Macedonia 131st.

I think I already shared my thoughs on the game between the two. I'll just copy my final thought.

Quote from FlyingCrow

"...having a bad day and playing one bad game does not make the losing team bad or the winning team good."

When it comes to stats and past achievements I have nothing to add. I agree with you, historically Slovenia's NT didn't have any visible results and major success. Although, However, I hope we can agree that the team has played well the last couple of years when compared to their previous results and has improved. I think this is Slovenia's peak performance at the moment in term of the result (not their gameplay on the court).

We might not agree on our individual and personal interpretation of a top team but I think I was careful with my choice of words. I called Slovenia's NT a top team while Poland and Rusia World class. I'm not arguing with your tier list though, quite contrary I agree with it. I'm just voicing my opinion that Slovenia's NT is deservedly in the final of ECH 2019 and looking at the most recent results can be called a top team.

With that out of the way. Let's enjoy today's game.

France sounds more applying than Serbia so far. They also have the privilege of playing in front of their home crowd. Serbia has become so broken nowadays. I think it's probable to think we're gonna have a Slovenia VS France Final. But everything can happen since the difference in levels isn't much. Serbia may actually defeat France if they play their best game.

How does Eurovolleytv work for you? I have an annoying second voice in another language.

Quote from QueenPiccininiLover

How does Eurovolleytv work for you? I have an annoying second voice in another language.

Sorry I don't have Eurovolleytv, but there's the great Colantoni-Lucchetta duo commentating on Italian TV

Ngapeth, Petric and Kovacevic on court reminds me of Modena's glorious days

Quote from Spyro

Sorry I don't have Eurovolleytv, but there's the great Colantoni-Lucchetta duo commentating on Italian TV

It's a joke. Isn't it?

Quote from QueenPiccininiLover

It's a joke. Isn't it?

Sadly it's not a joke

Quote from Spyro

Sadly it's not a joke

Trust me, I always hated web streaming, but, since I subscribed this service, I have to admit it is way better than what the italian TV provides for those unlucky people that watch it. I'm thinking to keep it: apparently they also show men's and women's CL.

Quote from saishuu

How does everyone feel about Toniutti these days? I feel he's been kinda off for quite a while now (since 2018 perhaps), but I'm not so sure if I'm just imagining things.

IMHO he plays always better with NT than club. And he's doing very well: his reverse sets for Boyer are amazing.

So far France in control, except few rallies in the end of the set (Serbia almost leveled it).

Slovenia-Poland looked a tougher game.

Today L. Tillie started with Lyneel instead of his son.

N'Gapeth!

Quote from FlyingCrow

@kyle7in1

I think being a fan already makes you subjective to a degree and sometimes it's hard not to be biased. No need to argue, I wouldn't call this arguing but rather discussing. To address some of your points.

Population number was not an excuse but a fact to present the numbers game. You already partly answered what they should represent yourself. We have to look only at those that engage in the sport. Now I don't have the number of active players in Slovenia, Poland or Russia. I can tell you however that in Slovenia there are 114 club registered at the Volleyball Federation of Slovenia (Slovenska odbojkarska zveza), There are 497 in Poland at the Polish Volleyball Federation (Polski Związek Piłki Siatkowej) and I couldn't find the latest Russian numbers. I checked the site of Volleyball Federation of Russia (Всероссийская Федерация Волейбола) but my russian is not at a level that would let me research that much further. The report I found was from season 2014/2015 but didn't refer the number of registered clubs or players. However, going after the trend that a higher population means more registered clubs, which consequently means more players, we can assume that Russia has even more active clubs and players. While this is no proof of any kind, and doesn't generally apply in sports, purely mathematicaly and statisticaly looking, with a higher number of players it is more likely that among those will be a higher percentage of talented players emerging. Maybe this isn't worded properly but I think it is clear what I mean.

Maybe another example to put it into perspective:

There is one Slovenian player playing in the NHL, Anze Kopitar. North America has more registered hockey players that Slovenia has inhabitants. There are 435 canadian players in the NHL out of 637.000 eligible registrated players at Canadian Hockey Association . That is 0.0683%. One slovenian player out of 180 registered players at Ice Hockey Federation of Slovenia (Hokejska zveza Slovenije) is 0.555%. I think those number speak for themself.

I thought maybe you would like this analogy because you like to stay to facts and stats.

In the end, this doesn't prove anything. That doesn't mean Slovenia has better athlets or that they are inherenthly disadvantaged in competitions.

I, personally however, think that being among top teams in Europe (currently) and being able to compete with the best in the world is a great achievement for the country and its athletes. I think it's fair to praise them for their run in the ECH.

You said yourself, North Macedonia and Slovenia both have a population of ~2M, yet Slovenia is ranked 17th by FIVB and North Macedonia 131st.

I think I already shared my thoughs on the game between the two. I'll just copy my final thought.

When it comes to stats and past achievements I have nothing to add. I agree with you, historically Slovenia's NT didn't have any visible results and major success. Although, However, I hope we can agree that the team has played well the last couple of years when compared to their previous results and has improved. I think this is Slovenia's peak performance at the moment in term of the result (not their gameplay on the court).

We might not agree on our individual and personal interpretation of a top team but I think I was careful with my choice of words. I called Slovenia's NT a top team while Poland and Rusia World class. I'm not arguing with your tier list though, quite contrary I agree with it. I'm just voicing my opinion that Slovenia's NT is deservedly in the final of ECH 2019 and looking at the most recent results can be called a top team.

With that out of the way. Let's enjoy today's game.

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TBH, I am a Poland NT hater most of the time, I don't like Heynen and some of Polish players. But I do agree they are one of best teams in the world, based on the stats in world tournaments.

The basic logic is: if we say Slovenia is a top team because they beat Russia/Poland in knockout. Then how about when Slovenia lost to North Macedonia and Russia in group matches, can we say they are a bottom team? Clearly not. In this case we just say they have a good day or bad day. So what's the standard to define a top team (Class A team) and good team (Class B team)? I won't use I feel, I think, I sense or whatever words. I only check their NT stats, esp stats in Olympics, WCH and WC. Hard evidence talks, just like we evaluate a player by his stats in the whole season, not just by several games.

If someone said Slovenia is a top team in this ECH, I agree. But if someone said Slovenia is a top team in the world, I do not agree. A top team, by default, should be defined or checked by spanning a certain period of time, such as a few years, to make it more convincing. Just my 2 cents.

Quote from serdar

Why are you counting down all the results from stone age? I might not be expert at men's volleyball but what I do know is; in sports what matters is the most recent results!

Cuban women volleyball team might be the most successful team based on their history but they are not considered as a strong team just because of their medals 20 years ago.

By the way it is very funny that you brought up Serbia-Yugoslavia topic. Montenegro was part of Yugoslavia as well, does it make them also strong team now based on your criteria?

Having a lot of medals in the PAST only makes you a country with a strong volleyball history but it doesn't mean the team is the strongest right now. Thus, Slovenia is a strong team without much success in the past, which is totally understandable as it is a very new country.

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Fine, Serbia got 4th place in WCH 2018. France got 4th place in WCH 2014. If you still argue 2014 is also a stone age, I have no words. I don't like to discuss this topic with someone who did not even watch Men's games. You don't have to be an expert to understand what I said. As long as you watched Men's games, you will know.

Serbia strikes back heavily in the second set. Atanasijevic is a monster among monsters! He's finally back in shape. Absolutely 100% spike rate until now. Serbia's block is killing Lyneel and Boyer so they can't spike the ball recklessly. But idk why when Serbia gets a good point distance they become loose, making too many errors and letting France get some consecutive points one after another.

Serbia should have no problems to take set #2.