Politics and social issues

    Quote from Janko

    It's a bit more complicated with historical figures (and by "historical figures", for this purposes, I mean "anyone who died more than 20 years ago"), because everyone in history was at least a little some -ism.:lol: As a history lover, I'm acutely aware just how much most of the young population living today are NOT aware that modern attitudes to race, sex, gender and all kinds of identity issues are very, VERY recent.

    I disagree with that. Of course, the geography and the era that a person was born have an effect on her worldview, but I can't consider it as an excuse. There are many scientist or historical figures who are not sexist, homophobic, etc in spite of where and when they were born

    Quote from serdar

    I disagree with that. Of course, the geography and the era that a person was born have an effect on her worldview, but I can't consider it as an excuse. There are many scientist or historical figures who are not sexist, homophobic, etc in spite of where and when they were born

    Honest question: how do you know that? Anachronism is a real and valid concept, and for nothing so much as for moralistic judgements. To judge historical figures by modern standards is an exercise in futility. Now, of course, there are degrees; one would hold an early 20th century scientist, say, to a justifiably higher moral standard than a 4th century warlord, but it's still pointless. One can only validly judge people according to widely socially accepted standards of their own day and era (which is precisely why getting as many people as possible acquainted with such issues as systemic racism, implicit bias and identity politics is such an important development of the last 10-15 years).

    Quote from Janko

    Honest question: how do you know that? Anachronism is a real and valid concept, and for nothing so much as for moralistic judgements. To judge historical figures by modern standards is an exercise in futility. Now, of course, there are degrees; one would hold an early 20th century scientist, say, to a justifiably higher moral standard than a 4th century warlord, but it's still pointless. One can only validly judge people according to widely socially accepted standards of their own day and era (which is precisely why getting as many people as possible acquainted with such issues as systemic racism, implicit bias and identity politics is such an important development of the last 10-15 years).

    Can't disagree more. I judge their opinions and ideas with my point of view. I don't see why it is wrong. With your logic, shouldn't we criticize people who were supporting slavery because at that era it was fine?

    Human sacrifices in many cultures used to be a thing many centuries if not thousands years ago.


    If it weren't for the religions that were significantly peaceful or less-bloody, those could have lived on still with modern society accepting it as a norm.


    Now people blamed those "peaceful religions" as cause of wars which isn't exactly false as those religions were used as a medium for boosting military morale for conquest or starting senseless conflicts.


    But it would have been horrifying if for example the Mayan Civilization or Aztec Empire stood against the test of time and Christopher Columbus or Hernan Cortez never existed to conquer and somewhat revolutionize the way of the old world through whatever devices they held on to defeat them.


    Nowadays Christopher Columbus is being condemned for his crimes against humanity by the modern society brought about by the death of George Floyd as an evil symbol of a white man killing people of colour.


    We'll never know if Mesoamerica could have evolved past its bloody cultures but we can't deny the existence of Hernan Cortez and Christopher Columbus helped speed it up to nigh oblivion but for it to be done, mountains of human have to die as to meet that end.

    Favorite players: M: Maxim Mikhaylov, Murilo, Serginho, Aaron Russell, Otavio, Simone Giannelli, Ivan Zaytsev, Tsvetan Sokolov, Michał Kubiak, Mariusz Wlazly, Pawel Zagummy W: Sheilla, Zhu Ting, Natalia, Fe Garay, Fofao, Gabi, Thaisa, Foluke Akinradewo, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Carli Lloyd, Fabi, Natalia Goncharova, Yuko Sano, Saoris Kimura and Sakoda


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    I think we can and should judge them, and not have statues of some of them at least.


    But yea we should remember the time as well, WITHOUT using it as an excuse.


    You just realize history often is written by whoever would have wanted you to read it after a while and that brings many issues with it. What I always stress to people is, yes history can be important but there is a history that exceeds any historical sources importance to me and that is unwritten history, yet to be made history. The present and the future. We simply can't change anything about the past, but we can do EVERYTHING now and today. It's why I also have a no-tolerance mindset towards ignorance lol. Not gonna let my history be written with your ignorance #bye

    Quote from serdar

    Can't disagree more. I judge their opinions and ideas with my point of view. I don't see why it is wrong. With your logic, shouldn't we criticize people who were supporting slavery because at that era it was fine?

    Well you should ask yourself if advanced automation existed during that time as it exists today, would there have been a need for slavery?

    Favorite players: M: Maxim Mikhaylov, Murilo, Serginho, Aaron Russell, Otavio, Simone Giannelli, Ivan Zaytsev, Tsvetan Sokolov, Michał Kubiak, Mariusz Wlazly, Pawel Zagummy W: Sheilla, Zhu Ting, Natalia, Fe Garay, Fofao, Gabi, Thaisa, Foluke Akinradewo, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Carli Lloyd, Fabi, Natalia Goncharova, Yuko Sano, Saoris Kimura and Sakoda


    #FreeBritney

    Quote from beri

    I think we can and should judge them, and not have statues of some of them at least.


    But yea we should remember the time as well, WITHOUT using it as an excuse.

    Exactly right.


    When I criticised anachronistically judging people of the past, I really meant for things and opinions that have only in recent decades became socially unacceptable and condemnable like homophobia, transphobia and such, NOT about murder and slavery. But while we are on the subject of slavery, no I don't advocate that we shouldn't criticise slave-owners. Fuck 'em, they were bastards, but you know what? Many people in mid-19th century knew slavery was bad, and it was outlawed in most parts of the world by the time of the American Civil War, so when it comes to American issues with slavery, their ancestors don't even have that excuse of having the shield of ignorance to protect them.;)


    As for Columbus, Cortes and the like, even in their own day, there were many, many contemporary people who condemned them and their actions, both on the moral grounds and on the grounds of inefficiency/incompetence (the latter more so in the case of Columbus). Millions of people did NOT had to die to eradicate human sacrifice (not that altruism was even in the top 20 motives for Columbus/Cortes/Pizzaro). And Aztecs and Incas were always doomed to failure (in the sense of never having the chance of remaining the political and military great powers as soon as Europeans became aware of their presence, and so human sacrifice would have died out in any case). But the invaders acted and treated them unimaginably and needlessly cruelly and for that they fully merit the condemnation, even from just a consequentialist POV.

    Quote from Janko

    Exactly right.


    When I criticised anachronistically judging people of the past, I really meant for things and opinions that have only in recent decades became socially unacceptable and condemnable like homophobia, transphobia and such, NOT about murder and slavery. But while we are on the subject of slavery, no I don't advocate that we shouldn't criticise slave-owners. Fuck 'em, they were bastards, but you know what? Many people in mid-19th century knew slavery was bad, and it was outlawed in most parts of the world by the time of the American Civil War, so when it comes to American issues with slavery, their ancestors don't even have that excuse of having the shield of ignorance to protect them.;)


    As for Columbus, Cortes and the like, even in their own day, there were many, many contemporary people who condemned them and their actions, both on the moral grounds and on the grounds of inefficiency/incompetence (the latter more so in the case of Columbus). Millions of people did NOT had to die to eradicate human sacrifice (not that altruism was even in the top 20 motives for Columbus/Cortes/Pizzaro). And Aztecs and Incas were always doomed to failure (in the sense of never having the chance of remaining the political and military great powers as soon as Europeans became aware of their presence, and so human sacrifice would have died out in any case). But the invaders acted and treated them unimaginably and needlessly cruelly and for that they fully merit the condemnation, even from just a consequentialist POV.

    There are actually a lot of factors to consider now that I think of it: religion, location, situation of the nation etc. besides the time. For example you reminded me in the east homophobia was told to be introduced by meeting the western nations and mainly abrahamic religions, like in Japan but many more. So people there would also be judged differently, it definitely matters.
    Indeed other than that, people like Columbus were definitely challenged at their time as you said, they knew what they were doing, even if they did a whole lot right, they were in fact murderers, slave owners etc.


    Then there are even people like Ghandi known for standing against racism even but do people know his own...racist tendencies. You'd be shook if you google some of it, someone we all know as pretty much an angel and historic figure against racism...


    All I can conclude is, I totally understand we're having issues grouping these people :lol: It's all a big old mess.

    Quote from beri

    Reminder to people that slavery also still exists...

    which the whole world is somehow ironically a slave to... Modern slavery/Cheap Labour.:gone:

    Favorite players: M: Maxim Mikhaylov, Murilo, Serginho, Aaron Russell, Otavio, Simone Giannelli, Ivan Zaytsev, Tsvetan Sokolov, Michał Kubiak, Mariusz Wlazly, Pawel Zagummy W: Sheilla, Zhu Ting, Natalia, Fe Garay, Fofao, Gabi, Thaisa, Foluke Akinradewo, Wei Qiuyue, Ding Xia, Carli Lloyd, Fabi, Natalia Goncharova, Yuko Sano, Saoris Kimura and Sakoda


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    Quote from zhutingfan

    and there are the uncontacted peoples living a nomadic life

    I mean those can be distinctive, in fact usually are :whistle: nomadic people move a lot after all. But there are some truly uncontacted people indeed though rare and sometimes nomadic. Most of them I'd say are in places locked away from society, like those rainforests in South America have some tribes.


    As a modern nomad (aka someone who moves from country to country all the time :D ) I got offended

    Quote from beri

    I mean those can be distinctive, in fact usually are :whistle: nomadic people move a lot after all. But there are some truly uncontacted people indeed though rare and sometimes nomadic. Most of them I'd say are in places locked away from society, like those rainforests in South America have some tribes.


    As a modern nomad (aka someone who moves from country to country all the time :D ) I got offended

    Yeah you are right, they are not necessarily nomadic. I don't know why I thought that.

    Hi! Thank you so much for opening up in such an intimate and comprehensive way. One of the things that I find more cool about this sport, and this forum particularly, is the ability to connect with people from another part of the world and learning that, despite all the cultural specificities, we're not necessarily all that different in essence. I think your journey towards more awareness has been cool and inspiring. But obviously you had it in you, somewhere, to look for something maybe you didn't even know you needed to find. My hopeful side tries to believe there's more people like that out there.

    Quote from Sisko

    I’m sorry you feel you can’t express yourself here just because you sometimes disagree with the prevailing viewpoints around here. I don’t really want the place to turn into an echo chamber.


    Personally I don’t judge athletes by their social positions unless they are really, really repugnant. That’s partly because I don’t really expect athletes to have particularly educated or thoughtful takes on this stuff but it’s not just that. Put it this way: I think our treatment of animals is absolutely abhorrent and I have quite a hardcore position on that. But if I cut ties with all people who eat meat then I’d miss out on a lot of good and otherwise intelligent people. What I mean is just because someone holds a position that you consider totally wrong, ignorant or harmful doesn’t always mean they’re “bad” people.


    But that’s just my opinion. Everybody has their own limits of what they tolerate and I’m not going to attack anyone who changes their mind on an athlete because of something they did/said.

    You know what? I totally see your point. I try to think I'm not very judgemental about people in general too, and I definitely don't feel I need people to agree with me in order for me to appreciate them. But I think some lines have been crossed these past couple of years specially, due to the whole Covid thing. I mean, different things may push people's different buttons, but some things have to do pretty much with just human decency, you know?


    I'll give an example. One of my all time favorite players is Brazilian setter Fernanda Venturini, who played for our NT from the 80's until 2004. I can definitely say she's one of the biggest reasons for me becoming so attached to volleyball. With the passing of the years, I started paying attention at some of the stuff she would say out loud, and it didn't take me long to realize we didn't see eye to eye on most topics. Actually, she's said some pretty nasty things in the past, and though I wish she didn't, I still tried to respect her as a person, because in spite of everything, I'm still very grateful for what she has done as a volleyball player.


    Last month, she went viral in Brazil, it totally broke out of the volleyball bubble, because she posted a video on her social network, celebrating the fact she was getting vaccinated from Covid. However, she said she didn't believe in the vaccine and she was only doing so in order for her to be able to travel around the world. Her tone was particularly distasteful. She laughed, she sounded arrogant, like mocking the situation. That is repulsive in itself. But if you take in perspective, with everything that's been going on in our country... The way the government dealt with the pandemic, how many people died and suffered, and are still suffering... It's too much, you know? It's not really being a human being... I can't get passed that.


    And I'm giving an example that's very extreme. But I'm also in awe at the silent treatment that lots of other important people are giving off... I think this is an important time in history, specially if you are a bellwether. I mean, at the end of the day, it's that Spiderman thing: with great power comes great responsibility. I have a hard time not seeing it like that anymore. Can't un-see what I already saw.


    EDIT: Besides Sisko, I think in thes message I meant to be replying to Serdar's initial post as well.

    Quote from allaretaken

    Wow, really thank you for this. After the Serbia VNL incident, I can't seem to bring myself to like the Serbia team anymore like the way I used to, especially after one player said team USA was exaggerating. I felt like the team and whole Serbia org didn't apologize well and didn't have any remorse on what they did even before (I only found out about the racist group photo recently).


    But as I've read your post, being someone who doesn't consume animal products as well, I've come to think why I don't demand the same accountability to meat-eaters the same way I do with the ones who committed racist actions. Where do I draw the line in judging these people based on their actions/beliefs? It's something I can reflect on so thank you for this.


    Also, thank you to Postyates for opening up this discussion. May we have more human beings like you people so the world will be a better place :win:

    Thank you. By the way, could you ellaborate on the VNL incident? I totally skipped the VNL, so I don't really know what's it about.

    Yes, I’m not trying to change your mind or anything. When it comes down to it, it’s your feelings that matter and if you feel like you don’t like someone anymore because of something they said or did then who am I to say you’re wrong?


    In the case of Venturini, perhaps you loved her as a volleyball player but we don’t really know these players as people. Maybe you don’t agree but I think it’s possible to still admire and respect her as an athlete but also criticise and condemn her personal actions.


    One thing I don’t like is when people try to tell others who they’re allowed or not allowed to like. When JK Rowling made her transphobic comments, I saw a lot of people acting like now nobody should be able to enjoy her books anymore. For me, it has to be a personal choice. There’s no right or wrong way feel about these things, just do whatever feels right to you.