Politics and social issues

    Quote from Sisko

    As for the NATO discussion, it’s absolutely true that it’s not some kind of benevolent force for good in the world and I don’t blame Putin if he feels threatened by its Eastward expansion. But while it might be used to intimidate Russia, NATO wouldn’t start a military conflict between the two. The bigger threat, I believe, is the expansion of Western control and ideas. If Ukraine, a country so closely tied to Russia, becomes fully “Westernised” then perhaps Russia could be next. Ultimately that has to be Ukraine’s decision to make though.

    NATO and EU enlargement is directly related to the fact, that from the Eastern European perspective, Western integration is just more beneficial than being neutral or being in Russian zone of influence. We can relativize anything we want, but we've been (as East Europe) in Russian/Soviet zone for +40 years, and Ukraine even longer, I think that's enough for Russian to convince us that cooperation with them has its benefits if they have anything to offer. They couldn't do it, because FR is too weak.


    The effect is that we've been feeling threaten (let's say Central Europe and the Baltic countries) by Russia since '91 and we prefer Western integration, and this is why this discussion about NATO-threat is kind of theoretical. And that is why majority of Ukraine can dream of being in a situation like Poland, so ~60% of Ukrainians are for EU membership now etc. Russia may feel threaten not because of a possible military attack of NATO (lol), but because Russia will lose against West on normal conditions because of combination of political and economic reasons, that is why Kiev is bombed. And this is what's this conflict is about, really. Check out Polish and Ukrainian GDP PPP in 1991, and in 2020, we were at 6,7k$ in GDP PPP per capita in '92, Ukraine was at ~6,4k$, we're at 34k now, Ukraine is at 13k (IMF data), that is why living in Poland is a major progress for average young Ukrainian, even though our parents started at the same level. And the same with our security. There were many variables, but first and foremost - we integrated with the West really quickly, Ukraine hasn't yet.


    And what's really paradoxical is that they'll be eaten alive by China in a longer period of time for the same reasons, yet they unaware that this alliance is only temporary, in Central Asia they already have problems in countries like Kazakhstan to be as influential as in the past.

    Quote from Realista

    NATO and EU enlargement is directly related to the fact, that from the Eastern European perspective, Western integration is just more beneficial than being neutral or being in Russian zone of influence. We can relativize anything we want, but we've been (as East Europe) in Russian/Soviet zone for +40 years, and Ukraine even longer, I think that's enough for Russian to convince us that cooperation with them has its benefits if they have anything to offer. They couldn't do it, because FR is too weak.


    The effect is that we've been feeling threaten (let's say Central Europe and the Baltic countries) by Russia since '91 and we prefer Western integration, and this is why this discussion about NATO-threat is kind of theoretical. And that is why majority of Ukraine can dream of being in a situation like Poland, so ~60% of Ukrainians are for EU membership now etc. Russia may feel threaten not because of a possible military attack of NATO (lol), but because Russia will lose against West on normal conditions because of combination of political and economic reasons, that is why Kiev is bombed. And this is what's this conflict is about, really. Check out Polish and Ukrainian GDP PPP in 1991, and in 2020, we were at 6,7k$ in GDP PPP per capita in '92, Ukraine was at ~6,4k$, we're at 34k now, Ukraine is at 13k (IMF data), that is why living in Poland is a major progress for average young Ukrainian, even though our parents started at the same level. And the same with our security. There were many variables, but first and foremost - we integrated with the West really quickly, Ukraine hasn't yet.


    And what's really paradoxical is that they'll be eaten alive by China in a longer period of time for the same reasons, yet they unaware that this alliance is only temporary, in Central Asia they already have problems in countries like Kazakhstan to be as influential as in the past.

    I can totally understand and relate to most of the things u mention, but just like collective memory of Polish people cannot shake the fear of Russia from their minds, there are many countries and peoples who suffered by the hands of NATO directly or indirectly and these are not easy things to get over. And the traumatic memories get poked by the double-standard, no matter if the cause is so pure and justified.

    For example, most of u probably didnt have a clue about political Islam and Erdoğan being actually a USA project, supported and promoted until 2013. (and no, unfortunately this is not a conspiracy theory :)) Well, what can we do at this point other than say "they played the wrong horse". A lot of hearts need to be repaired all around the world if they actually want to mend to wounds of humanity because the actual threat already reared its ugly head: far-right populist authoritarianism. All I try to cling on in this brutal and bone chilling times is Russian peace protesters who scream their throats out shouting "NO WAR" and the memory of those blond, blue-eyed people flooding the streets and say " we are all Muslims" when Trump tried to ban muslims entering USA or those beautiful blond, blue-eyed people all around the world shouting "Refugees are welcomed here" back in the day or those blond, blue-eyed people relentlessly screaming "black lives matter" and so on...

    All I can hope from this situation is that this war will not last long, Ukranians will have what they deserve and their "European dream" is not just being manipulated for the gains of others. And this will be the end of Putin and Russians can have what they deserve, and finally while Putin goes, he grabs Erdoğan from the neck and then we all run to the land of rainbows hand-in-hand. (I am told dreaming is free of charge :))

    Quote from ezo

    I can totally understand and relate to most of the things u mention, but just like collective memory of Polish people cannot shake the fear of Russia from their minds, there are many countries and peoples who suffered by the hands of NATO directly or indirectly and these are not easy things to get over. And the traumatic memories get poked by the double-standard, no matter if the cause is so pure and justified.

    Yeah, I'm not referring to the NATO in general, I can understand where Serbians are coming from, for example, in their criticism.


    I'm just saying that our perception of reality is subjective, but that doesn't mean the whole reality is subjective, there's a truth somewhere. Soviet Union post 1945 had +40 years to create an order that would be beneficial to the Eastern European countries, furthermore, they have all resources to create an economic system that would be as good as American/liberal in their own country. And they wasted their chance to the degree that we, as Eastern Europeans, are afraid of them as a state (deservedly so), and that is why we want to integrate within Western European community: not because Americans are imperialists and we enjoy that, but because it is more beneficial to us. You can compare the Polish development past 30 years with a development of Belarus or Ukraine, you'll find out where are we coming from with this thinking.


    That is why, even though we can point out hypocrisy of the West, yet we shouldn't fall into a complete relativism: at the same time Russia has been losing for a while now because this West is simply, on several areas, better. There's a reason why Russia provoked a war against Georgia when Sakashvili was getting closer to the West, there's a reason why Russia took Crimea and started to support separatists in the Eastern Ukraine after Janukovych was overthrown (and he was overthrown because he didn't want to sign an association deal with the EU. Why did Ukrainians want to associate themselves with the EU? Well...). And, like the director of the biggest Polish think tank regarding the East Affairs has been saying (OSW, I recommend their analysis to anyone speaking in Polish): right now Putin can't stand that every day, despite all his efforts, by an inch, but consistently, Ukraine was moving towards the West. That doesn't mean Ukraine is plain and ideal in this conflict, in a way, because there are natural areas of friction, yet this war was started for more obvious reasons: for quite some time now it is obvious for Ukraine that their development is related to the integration with the West. And there's nothing worse to any geopolitical post-Soviet resentment of Putin and Kremlin's elites than that.


    And, to conclude these discussions about NATO. Do you know how many US soldiers were in Poland (the biggest Central European country) before this whole affair started on February? Around 4500. Do you think this symbolic number of US soldiers have any real use in potential conflict with Russia? No. Do you know why this symbolic number of US soldiers was in Poland? As a reaction to the events from 2014. Do you know why they are here? Because, combining with NATO guarantees, this is a great deterrence against Russia. If Russia decides to attack Poland (or Baltic states), they're not only commit casus belli against the US according to the article 5 of the Washington Treaty, but they would also be fighting with the US soldiers, so they would be directly in a state of war against the United States. Do you know why we do know that this symbolic deterrence works? Because Russia has never invaded a small garrison of the American soldiers in the Western Berlin during the Cold War, because it would have not ended on a small garrison of the American soldiers, but on a nuclear war with the US. Do you know why Russia has been destabilizing Ukraine for almost a decade now, but not Latvia, where there's even higher percentage of Russian-speaking citizens? Answer yourself on that. Do you know how much Poland spends every year for its military in comparison to the US? Slightly below two percents of the American budget. This is how useful we would've been in a potential global Russian-American war.


    So, even though some NATO (or rather the United States') criticism is fair, the reality isn't purely subjective. And Russia has no reasons to be afraid of NATO enlargement from some realistic perspective in terms of military danger. Their fear is based on a fact that NATO, with EU, and the Western socio-political system, has much more to offer than Russia.


    Sorry for oversharing, but these are few words from the Eastern European perspective.

    Quote from Realista

    Sorry for oversharing, but these are few words from the Eastern European perspective.

    Dont apologize please, this is exactly the reason why i wanted to enter the discussion :)
    And I agree on ALL the things u say, even the ones starting with "do you know" or "can you answer". But are we not going to critisize the failure of American foreign policy after the collapse of Soviet Union? How they invented new enemies instead of trying to peacefully integrate people to their system. And turkey could've been their biggest tool for that, instead they created a monster. They played all the wrong pieces in this region that it blows my mind... Just to give a little hint on that, it was within the founding myth of Turkish Republic to integrate with Western world and right now (literally, since yesterday) the only thing in this vast universe Erdoğan can use to unite this extremely polarized society has become anti-west propoganda... Leftists are always against NATO (not EU, but NATO), the far-right has all the reasons to oppose West, but what paralyzes me is that the seculars and liberals are on that train too now. :) He is such a smart political animal that nobody dares to talk about or even dare to think about the very likely possibilty that if he loses the next elections he might say "yea, fuck that, if i go down everyone goes down" and starts a civil war, he already gave the signals of that to be frank. And if that happens I hope EU is prepared for another refugee crisis bc this time turkey will not be there to stop the flow since all of us will be running for our lives, and the big threat of China will yet again be the secondary focus.

    Quote from serdar

    USA has huge influence on IOC, they would never dare to make such a call for USA

    moving this because its OT for the champions league thread.


    well, they've never had to make the call, because the USA hasn't broken the Olympic Truce, which the federations have agreed to. That is the issue. There's not some big campaign against Russia, or non-western countries. (by the way, Russia is the only country to break the truce.... which they've done three times)


    There are many countries across this world doing sh***y things, not just the USA, not just Russia. If there was a blanket ban on all of them, we'd be left with Fiji playing Tonga in the WCH final.

    Quote from ezo

    For example, most of u probably didnt have a clue about political Islam and Erdoğan being actually a USA project, supported and promoted until 2013. (and no, unfortunately this is not a conspiracy theory :))

    +++++++++++++ YES!


    The hypocrisy goes to many extends and agree we as Turks can relate with NATO injustice AS a NATO member ourselves. As you said in the region the cards could not possibly have been played worse.


    Erdogan was funded right from the start by the US (EU countries were in on it as well) so it always annoys me when I see them being so critical now and bash the country at all chances, it's really cringe to me. The reasoning is quite ridiculous as well. Since Turkey was not becoming a full part of the west/EU in their eyes: EU being scared of majority muslim migrants, the disagreements with Greece etc. They thought it would be a brilliant idea to use their most ''western-proof'' West Asian/Middle Eastern ''ally'' as a project to be able to gain more control over the region. Turkey being the islamic example for the nations in the region. With a bit of authoritarianism, 0 freedom of speech and lots of cash poured to these future dictators what can go wrong :!::?:


    Turkey being deeply rooted in secularism of course being a huge issue here since it has to influence islamic nations. Honestly I don't get why the West constantly funded far-right conservatives all around the world and then calls them out for violation of human rights :rolll: see I genuinely believe these people just thrive on exploiting any country they can for their own gain. It's essentially the ideology Neoliberalism anyway. Just look at Africa today and how their land is being exploited with the same ideology, land the size of 4x Moscow being sold for 100 years lease. Not just the US btw, literally all countries in the world are starting to get in on it, it's a huge issue.


    As a secular atheist Turk I very much agree with you btw. Media describes as us pro-EU, pro-West opposition but that definitely doesn't describe me. As someone who also grew up half the time in the Netherlands, half the time in Turkey (divorced parents) I also know very much about the challenges that Turks face in the west, like having a Turkish name being a reason for many companies to automatically reject you, institutionalized discrimination.


    I hope we can get rid of the American ex-puppet next year. Polls say it's very much so possible :super:But democracy levels are not really there so who knows what happens :rolll: After 20+ years of forced failed islamization other polls say the country might be heading towards atheism/irreligion at a faster pace than any country in the world, with the youth that grew up in this regime (30-50% of Gen Z being irreligious vs 5% or less of the 50+) being more anti-religion than anyone else lmao. And hey being a true secular and independent state would acually be the best example for anyone in the region if you ask me, from our western flank to our eastern and southern flank. Take ur religious far-right projects and throw it in a bin, goodbye.

    Quote from avid

    There are many countries across this world doing sh***y things, not just the USA, not just Russia. If there was a blanket ban on all of them, we'd be left with Fiji playing Tonga in the WCH final.

    I'm not in favour of banning anyone, but the premise of the ban is invading a sovereign nation, not simply "doing sh***y things". And the majority of countries are not involved in current invasions.

    Quote from avid

    moving this because its OT for the champions league thread.


    well, they've never had to make the call, because the USA hasn't broken the Olympic Truce, which the federations have agreed to. That is the issue. There's not some big campaign against Russia, or non-western countries. (by the way, Russia is the only country to break the truce.... which they've done three times)


    There are many countries across this world doing sh***y things, not just the USA, not just Russia. If there was a blanket ban on all of them, we'd be left with Fiji playing Tonga in the WCH final.

    Fiji and Tonga are not completely innocent tho just saying :rolll::dance6::rolll:

    Quote from avid

    sorry... Random Country A and Random Country B :lol:

    do you really think A and B are angels? they are the most sinister of letters... (i can keep doing that :gone:)

    sorry i needed a bit of a laugh :lol:


    but in all of its seriousness i do think international law should be binding for ALL if we actually want this system of endless exploitation and suffering to truely end.

    Quote from ezo

    do you really think A and B are angels? they are the most sinister of letters... (i can keep doing that :gone:)

    sorry i needed a bit of a laugh :lol:


    but in all of its seriousness i do think international law should be binding for ALL if we actually want this system of endless exploitation and suffering to truely end.

    Ban vowels. They're always meddling with the consonants and insisting they be included in words. Why can't the consonants have a word of their own?


    #CancelA

    I'd like to buy a vowel please

    Quote from kyle7in1

    Fine, then how about banning USA NT from all FIVB matches?

    USA not only bombed Afghanistan, but also Yugoslavia, Libya, and more.

    It's enough for USA NT to get banned for a century.

    You are not wrong.. I agree with what you say.

    Bombs and war are always wrong, no matter what.

    NATO criminal bombs in Serbia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia were as deadly and bloody as the Russian ones in Ukraine now...bombs and violence are always a crime against humanity.


    But there are some main differences:

    1. Russia is bombing a democratic country which chose its destiny with free elections (NATO never did that).

    2. Russia is not a democracy. It's ruled by a (psycho) dictator.


    This Russian war in Ukraine is not just between Russia and Ukraine... it's a war between two opposite ideas of human society:

    Totalitarianism on one side Vs. Democracy/Freedom/Human rights on the other side.


    I don't know where you live, but here in Italy for example I would never get arrested for protesting against a government's decision. I can disagree and say it loud! LOUD! I AM AGAINST WAR AND I'M NOT GONNA BE ARRESTED FOR THIS!

    In Russia people can't do that... and it's time for them to wake up.

    Having lived as a white person in Japan as an exchange student, I learned very quickly that it is easier to be yourself and to treat others how you want to be treated.


    I am a empathetic person by nature. I connect with people because I can see the commonality that we all have. Without laughing at ourselves, we cannot make connections.


    In visiting Hiroshima in November 2019, where the first nuclear bomb fell in 1945 with my parents who were born in the years after World War II ended, we visited the Memorial Museum. It is a very enlightening place to see the sheer destruction that we can do to each other.


    We had a talk afterwards which was very frank as both grandfathers had fought in World War II. Neither fought in Japan, but my grandfather on my father's side was never complimentary to my studying of Japanese and my interest in Japan. Some of that may have been tied to the war. As we were finishing talking we had a nice cry because the war ended and all of three of us were able to experience this pain and seeing the suffering that our country caused, while being able to thank those that fought. Humanity can be both good and bad. Hopefully more for good.


    In Japan, the loss of World War II turned it into a great economic engine. Albeit when looking at how the Japanese treated, Chinese and Korean people pre- and during World War II, it was very bad. Rape of Nanjing, prohibition of Koreans using their own language, etc.


    Living in Japan, you still see some very nationalistic people. Sadly, go all over the world, if you are born in a country, are a native speaker of the language you get different privileges. Be an alpha-male, get more privilege. See the powerful, fight hard to keep others from succeeding because of their skin color, being a second language speaker, etc. With the barriers to economic success being lowered due to connectivity, learning to work with others outside our normal backgrounds will enable us to succeed. While also seeing possible barriers that need to be taken down.


    The simplest answer right now, is to say I want to help people from being harmed. I want to help people be successful. I have friends in numerous countries, Thailand, Japan, UK, Italy, that have allowed me to be part of their lives because I was frank and honest with them, while also allowing them to be frank with me. I try to be frank with people on this site, because of experience, but really I want to hopefully meet people in person and find that yes, I am the same behind the keyboard as I am in person.

    Quote from Toguttt

    .


    But there are some main differences:

    1. Russia is bombing a democratic country which chose its destiny with free elections (NATO never did that).

    not really, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych was forcibly removed from power by a coup. This coup was openly supported by US