Posts by alde

Hello guys,

I created a web site to view all CL games, player, coaches stats from last 26 seasons with some in-depth metrics. Player stats only available since 2010 as they are not included in game reports before 2010. I think it's better than CEV's own web site. You can send me any feedback, correction, suggestions etc via contact form or here. Hope you find it useful.


https://stats.attackline.net

Hello guys,

I created a web site to view all CL games, player, coaches stats from last 26 seasons with some in-depth metrics. Player stats only available since 2010 as they are not included in game reports before 2010. I think it's better than CEV's own web site. You can send me any feedback, correction, suggestions etc via contact form or here. Hope you find it useful.

https://stats.attackline.net

They have been creating this situation themselves putting together rosters with dead-ends for years. Their strategy for next year is no different. Castillo wont fix any of their problems just like Orro and Korneluk didnt give them any improvement. They are making the same hype with Castillo and Ogbogu now. They always act like those new players are some supernatural beings and their former players were dead weight. Gizem was one of the top liberos but is getting worse every season because she barely got any help. Like previous setters and blockers were not the issue, Gizem is not the reason they have a bad defense here. So same story different casting with no chemistry. You cant fix systemic issues with individual talent.

Hande was bad but the solution is not Ana Cristina. She didnt change outcome they still lost because their issue was not the attacking, it was defense as always and she proved it again failing at reception in the most critical time. They should already have alternatives for Hande or she should be alternative for more capable OH.

Quote from KVB

Taking Hande out was a correct decision. She kept sending overpasses before she was benched, and AC scored after entering the court. Agree on the Orro part though.

Next season they will have Jack, so they could play with Arina/Hande, Eda/Jack, Orro/Vargas + Brenda. But their biggest problem will still be the OH2. If Hande still plays like this (I’m 95% sure she will), they don’t have a solution for that.

This game was a quick preview of Fener’s next year failures to come. They should have taken advantage of Vakif having a bad day but their roster planning is so messed up that every move they make to fix one problem just creates another hole somewhere else.

Even thpugh Hande is playing poorly, they have to keep her on the court because they need Korneluk. If you bring Ana Cristina in then Asli gets exposed in blocking. Even with Hande the defence is already barely average and with Ana Cristina it turns into another circus. In the end they had to take Orro out. So if you have to rotate and cant use your overhyped blockbuster player in the most critical time of final series, what is the purpose of pouring all that money on her?

And the worst part is they dont seem to learn anything from any of this. Next season they’ll again go without a reliable defensive oh, add another foreign MB and bring in an additional foreign libero just to make sure the coach gets completely handcuffed. And then they act surprised why no coach can make the best roster in the universe work. Having luxury of a Turkish opposite and consistently building such dysfunctional teams require really special dedication. If there was a guide at how not to build a volleyball team, they would be enough example to cover all wrongdoings.

I have been saying that for years. Fener is a complete disaster, imho. Whole organization from fans to management are consumed by ingorance and delusion of flawed philosophy that they have been following blindly since Terzic. He might be gone long ago but his mind is still there deeply buried in the team dna regardless of the coaches or players. They been kept forming the same unbalanced team combinations as Terzic did in the past without changing core players and game system which have been the real issues here.

The whole tactic relies on forcing the game with superb service and attack performances by indiviudal players all the time which is very hard to sustain on high levels. It's a one dimensional, very predictable and outdated play without any flexibility or element of surprise. Even average teams can easily figure them out and the only thing stopping them become worse against lower teams is individual quality of the rosters like you said. Players have become so dependent on playing this way they seem like to forget other aspects of the game. They are not able to perform simple acts in defense and any alternative tactics or react changes in the game dynamics. They always trying to play the same game like some scripted NPCs regardless of the situation. It's like a plague effecting new players also. Once a player adapted to the team they look like lost all their abilities after a few months and become a mess.

Because management and fans are convinced this system is the greatest tactic volleyball world has ever seen they assume the problem should be something else not the system itself. They really believe they are the smartest people in volleyball history. After all who else thought of forcing services and running three opposites with highballs in the same lineup ?

So they focus on changing setters, blockers, coaches spending more each year but they are getting worse and worse results. Now the same pattern can be seen in other positions. They lack of defensing so they make another brilliant move getting a new foreign libero even though they already maxed out their foreign player limit in other vital positions. And of course nobody bothers to stop and think how are these constantly rotating players supposed to perform and develop some chemistry? I cant remember when was the last time a Turkish team spend money on a starter-level foreign libero. They are batshit crazy.

Unless they are on a some kind of mission to test limits of stupidity, it's really hard to make sense why they have been so stubborn on this formula because it simply doesnt work. There is no setter, blocker, libero or coach to fix Fener's issues without resetting the organization's mind. They desperately need complete rebuild from scratch starting with every member of management and core players.

Quote from Cofi

I’ve said it many times and people act like I’m some Terzic apologist but the core of Fener’s offense was built by him. After the pins started to show up in his system and they won the title the managment thought that they could put anyone in charge and the result would be the same.. they have 0 idea what they’re doing as they only barely won the title once more (3-2 against much weaker Eczacibasi with Ferhat).
The solution of managment is to bring whatever known name and throw money to established players who are great but don’t fit their system (Orro, Korneluk, even Chiaka and Castillo next season). Changing coach every season for 4 in a row doesn’t help them either and their HC choices are random and ridiculous as well.

Vakifbank on the other hand is team built around their core with specific idea of what kind of player they need to complement their game. The only ridiculous move was letting Gabi go as her and Markova were automatic 5/5 trophy duo. Bosetti was the logical choice although it didn’t quite work out. Cazaute and Dangubic are the most logical choices next to Markova. Boskovic was the OP that fits Vakifbank the best with Cansu’s “watermelons” sets. Karmen was their player and is a great MB but I get why they wouldn’t necessarily need her considering she is more of a offensive MB, so even that can make sense. Ivanovic is (no bias) one of the best prospects for all around OH, maybe it was too early for Guidetti to add her but I always knew she would fit Vakifbank’s system in the long run.
Now compare how Fener’s players fit their system (what even is their system at this point lol).

Eczacibasi always had terribly messy transfer policy but this season with core of Ebrar, Dilay, Elif and Rettke plus Bregoli they managed to add players that actually compliment what they need. They only failed in MB department as Jack will be huge loss. Tbh still much better transfer period for them in rebuilding whole team in 2 seasons then Fenerbahce trying to fit as many known names that don’t compliment each other into a working squad for 4 seasons now…

Fener loves throwing money around as the club's transfer strategy is driven by popularity in twitter not some logic. However Hande is an understandable move as there is not much alternative to make a difference in Turkish OHs in the market and they had to offer her more than Eczacibasi but the amount they spent for Orro is much more ridiculous and pointless imho.

Because we already have seen without Hande or any similar OH they looked like a team that barely can get 4th place in regular season so elimination in semi finals was a guarantee. At least they managed to get the finals with her. On the other hand I dont think Orro has the same impact and importance. Even if they had played this season with Arelya or some other random setter instead of Orro, they would still be in exactly the same position in every tournament they are now.

Vakif was worse in reception than Fener yesterday though they dominated the game but nobody talks about how Orro is just useless even in above average reception. She was not the right setter for the current attackers they have and as I said before I think she was much more wasted money than Hande.

The issue was not the setters in previous years but the only solution management come up with is spending more money and signing big names every year. They always get new blockers, setters, coaches all the time without thinking if they are really needed or compatible with the team or they can achieve the same things with alternative players without spending tons of money in vain. I forget to count how many of them were crushed in their absurd system. And now they get a new foreign libero but all these are pretty much pointless. Castillo's faith will not be different as the libero is not the reason Fener's bad team defence. Unfortunately they are stuck in a constant loop of treating symptoms not the root causes.

Quote from Nurik

Everyone knows both are mediocre but popular. zero points hande and orroverated but the amount of publicity Turkish media gives Orro as if she's making strides when really it's just her most basic interaction with the hitters is just obnoxious. Even though everyone's talking about Dilay's talent the league focuses on orro over bare minimum shit

There is no difference between key players whatever their positions are unless they cannot be replaced fully because it infects whole team in similiar aspect. What I meant is that there is no team in Turkey to back up all critical players especially Turkish ones. If you think opposite is not a key position and easily handled then assume Vakifbank and Eczacibası without Neslihan and Glinka in a game against Fenerbahce. Coach's choices are not my business, I just can say my opinion.

Champions league is not a national organization and cannot be compared. Geographical limitations never allow international organizations to follow the same regulations with national ones. If you dont see that basic point then search for the differences between those competitions on any sport around the world. Beside someone will ask then why they dont organize final game as one match or normal season as qualification round? They are in different levels and have different meanings and rules.

Olympic games qualification is just an excuse. You say as if Turkey is the only country which will play in qualifications and it makes federation right to take unfair decides. Like I said round-rubin system is fairer and takes shorter period if they really want to get some space in schedule. I dont think no one would question the winner then but when you set it up like this, one side would always think it's not fair for it simply seems so. If you were a Fener fan, you would claim the regulation is wrong. If Eczacibasi have lost yesterday, they would say it's. So it's not about Fenerbahce. The system itself gives one side the right to criticize because it's not well organized to stop arguments about it. Did you see anyone that says system is not fair about older champions? Were people talking about play-off system or games recent years here? If we are now discussing the rules as much as games it's because something is wrong. It's federation's mission to make a justice regulation and that play-off chaos doesnt meet those conditions for everyone. This is where you get all the season's effort and no one including president has right to make that simple to lose or win everything for players and teams. Try to put yourself players' and coaches' positions, maybe then you might get better understanment. If we lost in a system like last year, I would never write about this and I dont think anyone would.

As for domination. I am giving the last three season because two teams compete each other on every top level for 3 years and it's not an old period to compare the teams. If you want, this is how it is season for season:

2009-10 6-1 for Fener
2010-11 6-2 for Fener
2011-12 2-1 for Fener

It doesnt seem a balanced rivalry. I am sure you will not claim Vakifbank didnt show real power since play-off finals are not important.

I am not begging anyone, I am just a fan and dont care wild card. If team can't get it this year, there are a lot of seasons to go. It's not the end of the world.

Quote from serdar

You can criticize the Play-off system (for me it is not that much big deal, purpose was to give national team more time to prepare olympic qualification, which really makes sense.) but blaming federation for the defeat is not logical for me. Even though you don't like the system it was not a last minute decision right? so eveybody knew that since the beginning of season. So FB had time to take some measures, but they didn't.

It is very obvious that Seda has chronic injury (she had many injuries last 3 seasons) and even though she is such a healthy player, a team which has such big roster mustn't trust Yağmus as a only back-up. And also you are wrong about Vakıfbank's case and you miss an important point too: Gözde was very important for team both attacking and receving whereas Seda is only attacker. And as you said It is even possible to put Eda or Duygu as opp to compensate Seda's absent. Everybody knows that the easiest position to adaptate to a team is always opposite players but can you claim same thing about a receiver/attacker OH?

To sum up, firstly although I also prefer the play-off system of last season instead of this one, I can understand the reasons of federation (in the favor of NT) and it is not a valid excuse for me since regulations were clear since the beginning of the season Also it is the same case with Champions League Final Four, only one match determine the champion and they also ignore group results and only one match for being champion and Fenerbahçe did it, right? so it is not that much awkward. Moreover, naming Vakıfbank's success is only because of luck or regulation is purely disrespectful You got same regulation as Vakıfbank has and the same luck when Gözde were injured.

Secondly, I think that FB makes a very stupid mistake by not transfering any other spiker except or instead of Yağmur.

Thirdly, I don't also agree about your claim about the huge dominations between Vakıfbank and Fenerbahçe. First of all, if you compare two teams it must be season by season instead of over all results(because if you talk about last 3 three season I can give you last 6 seasons results which almost makes results even ) And for season by season comparation, for me each match doesnot have the same value. And since Vakıfbank shows a better performance with the most crucial ones, for me , they are better or let's say there is no huge domination (but it is totally different understanding of definition of 'dominating' word, I can understand your opinion too )

Lastly, don't forget that the federation you blame would beg CEV to have a Wild Card for Fenerbahçe next season

Display More

You are missing some points. Let's back the last season. Can you tell me how Vakifbank tolerated Gozde's injury on the middle of finals? They simply not. Where was their deep squad then? Turkish player pool is not enough to back up all critical positions even just for top 3 teams. Let's assume more examples. Who wil replace Neslihan in Eczacibasi or Gizem in Vakifbank against Fenerbahce? Fenerbahce did resist on such a crisis more than Vakifbank did on last season finals. Actually they might handle Seda's missing more effectively replacing Eda for Yagmur then positioning Duygu-Ipek for middle but Ze Roberto didnt try this which I dont understand why. In any way it would get better than other option and break the balance for Fener again. And in fact if semi finals would play as a series Fenerbahce could find a combination like I described to overcome Seda's missing but Federation gave them no time. On the other side Vakifbank couldnt do this neither even if they had that chance last season. Remember? And that is the difference between two teams. When Fenerbahce have disadvantages like yesterday, Vakifbank win very hardly or sometimes lose (like they beat Vakifbank without Osmokrovic last season's final game). If Vakifbank in the same position, Fenerbahce dominate the game. If two teams are in their best conditions or there is a series to win then Vakifbank have no chance as we have seen many times before. Only exception for this might be CL game in last year. Two teams met 18 times during last three seasons. Fenerbahce lost 4 games which are all of them with 3-2, won 14 games which are most with clear scores like 3-1, 3-0. Overall one victory and stupid regulation dont change the fact that Fenerbahce is still better team than Vakifbank.

As for play-off system. It reminds me Maccabi's situation on Israeli National Basketball League. But in Israel everyone including Federation accept this system is set up to stop Maccabi and make more competitive league. In Turkey excuses are different but the path is almost the same. Fenerbahce lost only one time in 86 games during three seasons plus play-offs. There is no team to beat Fenerbahce in 3 consecutive games in Turkey in current conditions. In fact the team have never lost two consecutive games for 4 years in Turkey and Europe or any organization they compete. I have no doubt that Unal Karabiyik the President of Turkish Federation knows that fact. The system basically is like a trap that seems to set to stop the favorite team. Normal season leader was clearly showed up after Fenerbahce beat all other competitors for the crown with clear sets in just five days. And now you ignore all the games before as if they were never played, you match semi finals as 1-3, 2-4 punishing normal season's best team and rewarding others for their performances which is a totally joke and tie all season's fate to one game. There would be no way to apply such an injustice and nonsense regulation in any other national league organization or top competitions like NBA. Even if you try to suggest it in a forum like this, you simply become a figure of stupid. Try it on any competition's forum and see the result with your own eyes and then share your experience here If i am wrong. If you are a director or something like it and still very serious for this idea, you lose your chair and not get any job within that organization in a normal world. But this is Turkey where one man with power doesnt need to find a sense of purpose to take mad decisions because there is no one to stop him. You cannot say system is fair to all teams. Fenerbahce won 25 games without a lose and then Vakifbank beat them once. Season is finished. Second team Eczacibasi played the weakest team Galatasaray and easily made up the finals. There is no second chance and you call it fair?

If federation could really want a fair competition then they would make a round-robin system with top four teams as they did five years ago. Turkish volleyball fans can easily remember the terms championship group (top 4 teams) or classifaciton group (other four teams). And It would be definetelly completed in the same time period like this one maybe shorter. But instead they have chosen a system that is never seen around before.

Fenerbahce might get what they deserved but every team has limits. Sometimes you get more handicaps than you can handle and then fate is unavoidable. It's time to move on for Fenerbahce for next season. Luck and rules will not be with Vakifbank forever.

Quote from serdar

Yes sorry but for me not big difference (It is not because I trust Duygu or İpek so much, reason is probably Selime or Seray doesnot have same meaning as you have )

if your arrivals are playing in the same conditions and still play well even in the case of injuries, it is not fair to blame federation. And having a good spiker as a bench player does not mean use them lik how Galatasaray used Seray For example Vakıfbank using Güldeniz in a very efficient way in my opinion.

All in all, from my perspective it was soo obvious that they would have a big trouble in the case of Seda's injury, so it is a huge mistake to only trust Yağmur and hope no injury for seda (indeed she is known with her frequent injuries )

hmetin

Fenerbahce doesnt trust Seda. If they do, they would not replace her with Gamova after a season which she was MVP in Turkey and the best scorer in Cev Cup and now with Kasia or Sokolova. Can you say Seda is less talented than Ortolani? Fenerbahce has invested Seda as an opposite for almost four years but when it came to get return for this investment, the club changed the strategy. Because club and community are impatient. And now Seda is supposed to be an OH after 7-8 years played as opposite. Beside Fenerbahce is doing it wrong way. How can you expect Seda as a standart OH while using her sometimes Opposite sometimes OH and mostly keeping on the bench? Fenerbahce fans always say National Team is not our matter and they were complaining why Seda doesnt play instead of Neslihan in NT but club now tries to make Seda the same way as in National Team. I dont understand this.

As you know this is a habit for Fenerbahce community in other sports too. You cannot give any name for any Turkish young talent in any team sport which Fenerbahce has helped improving and bring out from junior level for last 10 years or more. The only name you can mention might be Omer Asik young center of basketball team but we can see how he and the club made the things a big mess nowadays. And other young talent Emre Batur in men volleyball has the similiar problems with Seda. Fenerbahce really doesnt know how to make a junior player progress to a star or first class. And other young players coming to the club as a hot prospect cant show enough progress due to this mentality. Maybe Preldzic will be an exception but it doesnt change current status in the big picture.

You have right to criticize Fenerbahce or any other team's monopol policy on the market and damaging balances between the teams but you may not exactly say what will happen before the season ends. Yes there are similiar examples in the past of European Volleyball but it doesnt mean Fenerbahce will end through the same way. As for monopoly. There are many teams on other sports trying to build an hegemony like Spartak Moscow Region and other Russian teams with abnormal budgets in Women Basketball so this season FIVB got new regulations to prevent some teams damage competition's consistence. And I can say Euroleague will be more balanced compared past seasons. Current rules in Volleyball allow monopolization. Maybe CEV should also try some arrangments but as far as I can see CEV doesnt seem to make something about it for now.

Fenerbahce is not that lucky and has not the same conditions with Spartak. As if I were you, I would not bother that much thinking about it because Fenerbahce has foreign limit inside country. This is a big problem to get through. Team managers have chosen hard way to get the goals maybe the club is right on its choice. We will see it on next stage. If Fenerbahce fails, the team will probably lose its Turkish players and it will be very hard to rebuild it. So it may be a good example for other clubs intending the same way. If Fenerbahce gets an happy ending then other clubs will have to get their budgest higher to compete with Fenerbahce and this is not something bad for competition and players. Fenerbahce or any similiar club have money and they can spend it any way they want unless CEV wont make something. It's not our business to say someone having money that he should spend his money like that way not this way.

Fenerbahce will start to remind me of Novara in 2006 if they will get two or more big stars. I hope the end wont be the same.

Quote from Matthias

And what is the big surprise they promised?

He said we will talk about it later. Maybe it might be a setter (Feng?), libero (Korotenko?) or coach. Who knows.

Quote from Pedro

Is anyone watching Skowronska's presentation?

What is that journalist talking about fort 10 straight minutes???

Actually that man doesnt know what he says

He asked do you know Sokolova I mean have you met her regularly beacuse Jesi and Pesaro are near towns. Kasia said she is not too close her and she hopes to be friends from that moment on.

And then he asked Fenerbahce has two opposites so what Kasia thinks about it. But Aydinlar the chief of sponsor company answered this question not Kasia and he said Sokolova is supposed to play as OH so that wont be a problem.

And he asked if Fenerbahce paid a transfer fee to Pesaro for Kasia. Aydinlar said yes we did but he didnt tell how much it is.

And last question is about the coach Jan de Brandt. The rest is crap. No need to translate here.

Quote from rainbow

To Turkish fans I have a question.Are your volleyball clubs making money?I mean like those European soccer clubs such as real madrid and etc. they do have big fame and popularity around the world.Their tickets and jerseys sell very well.But actually at least now they don't make money.I mean it is kinda pure investment.Of course I admire your companies' passion about volleball.But I am afraid it will be a fad.So ......

There is no income except sponsorhips and some clubs make money from bets but not too much. I havent seen any store that sells volleyball jerseys. Fans that come to games of clubs like FB, GS, BJK and KSK wear football shirts mostly and others wear shirts and jerseys given by clubs or players. Merchandising is not common in volleyball. And tickets are not enough to make money because most clubs have to pay venue rent for using Federation's hall. And also sometimes clubs can get money from transfers.

Quote from StarNight

alde
Lyuba's main position is OH.Coach transfered her for it.So why Kasia is coming to Fener?

Those stats show Kasia played better season than Lyuba.If you care total points,Skowronska shared points with Costagrande
Kasia 43,8(58 blocked 69 err.) 32 Block points 22 Ace
Lyuba 41,2 (90 blocked 86 err.)28 Block points 18 Ace.

By the way, I dindt see that post. Which coach are you talking about? Mehmet Ali Aydinlar?

Quote from Saybia

alde, I'm not saying that's gotta be all like that. Maybe Sokolova-Nati would play some unimportant league games too. I'm just saying you can tolarete 4 high level players with the rotaion like that, and Sokolova,Nati and Skowronska, for me they're kind of players that they won't mind have some rest during the season..

It's not what they accept or know before they come that matter, it's how they can get adapt for this rotation system with a brand new coach and team. It's not a usual way around volleyball world especially for club teams. So it's a risk for my opinion. I dont know how it ends but Fenerbahce is getting into an uneccesary and expensive adventure doing that even though they have other ways also.

Quote from Saybia

Cause we have Seda as OH too, and in my opinion the rotation will be mostly as Seda-Sokolova or Seda-Nati pairs, Seda's reception is not that well when you comparing with Nati or Sokolova of course, but İn Turkish there are too many weak teams except Eczacıbaşı, Vgstt and Gs, and we wont need that kind of perfect reception when we play against to them. Furthermore, Sokolova and Nati both are old player with children, they wont mind that much and that could be better to rest in some of the games for their shape..

Well how can you suppose them keep their shapes or team work while they are all replacing each other during the season? And as far as I hear Nati is not a kind of player who can accept that role. Maybe Italian friends on the forum may get us more help about it. That's all I can say until full roster is set officially.

Do you think two of the best players in the world will accept to be a guest star or play randomly during all the season? They cannot even be a bench player. It's very hard to make them accept and that's the main reason why Lo Bianco doesnt want to join this roster.

And Seda is not a real OH. She messes up easily if opponent targets her on service. Fenerbahce cannot tolarate her even against a team like Beylikduzu without replacing second libero or Blom. If Fenerbahce wants to keep her on the court regularly in tough games like VGS, GS or Eczacibasi they must play with Nati and Sokolova. Kasia cant get setter, libero or MB problem any good but Sokolova or Nati can because one foreign (mb, setter or libero) can get a place for Kasia. You can replace Kasia with options on the hand but Çiğdem or Ipek cant be compared to Poljak or any other top-class mb for example.

Anyway we are all talking about for nothing actually because the rest of the roster is unknown now.

And Starnight I am a Fener fan but I am not watching Fenerbahce or other teams' games with a fanatical mind that keeps me out logic. It doesnt matter for me who wants to see which player on the court. I am just looking at team's benefit overall. You are mistaking me for others or yourself. Maybe you are the one that needs to wake up, so keep your tips for yourself before deciding who is sleeping or not.

Quote from StarNight

Dont agree with you.Sokolova cannot replace her coz she cannot play good as opposite.Kasia is much better than Seda right now(Experienced and good shape) She isnt candidate to sit on tribune.

http://62.149.234.65/Statistic…009&AnnoFine=2009&Ruolo=5

And this is the last season stats of both players in Serie A. In addition Fenerbahce can use Sokolova more than one position. How can you say Sokolova cant replace Kasia?

Quote from jaco

Ok, thanks for the info, and how many teams counts Turkish league? Could you give any official site of it as I have problem with opening what I found
I rather meant that Serie A level can go lower in following season. Lack of Costagrande will make Scavo quite average team, Foppa can be still strong if LoBianco and Picci stay. Asystel can be stronger if Kirillova leaves however without Logan Tom(if leaves) it will be hard to achieve good result. Just Villa Cortese can be still very strong. Sokolova is also leaving Serie A.

There are 12 teams. I dont know any offical site that will give you more information in English or Turkish. Yes Serie A might lose its consistency but the players who may come to Turkey will be kept in three maybe four teams. It doesnt make the league more quality overall because the rest will not get the same level.

Quote from StarNight

Dont agree with you.Sokolova cannot replace her coz she cannot play good as opposite.Kasia is much better than Seda right now(Experienced and good shape) She isnt candidate to sit on tribune.

So who will be? Who will get cut mostly? The team's real problem and priority are not OPP, it's MB, setter and OH even a libero. So if you had three OPP options who can tolarate each other what would you do when you consider the team needs other players much more?