Posts by kyle7in1

FlyingCrow wrote:

@kyle7in1

I think being a fan already makes you subjective to a degree and sometimes it's hard not to be biased. No need to argue, I wouldn't call this arguing but rather discussing. To address some of your points.

Population number was not an excuse but a fact to present the numbers game. You already partly answered what they should represent yourself. We have to look only at those that engage in the sport. Now I don't have the number of active players in Slovenia, Poland or Russia. I can tell you however that in Slovenia there are 114 club registered at the Volleyball Federation of Slovenia (Slovenska odbojkarska zveza), There are 497 in Poland at the Polish Volleyball Federation (Polski Związek Piłki Siatkowej) and I couldn't find the latest Russian numbers. I checked the site of Volleyball Federation of Russia (Всероссийская Федерация Волейбола) but my russian is not at a level that would let me research that much further. The report I found was from season 2014/2015 but didn't refer the number of registered clubs or players. However, going after the trend that a higher population means more registered clubs, which consequently means more players, we can assume that Russia has even more active clubs and players. While this is no proof of any kind, and doesn't generally apply in sports, purely mathematicaly and statisticaly looking, with a higher number of players it is more likely that among those will be a higher percentage of talented players emerging. Maybe this isn't worded properly but I think it is clear what I mean.

Maybe another example to put it into perspective:

There is one Slovenian player playing in the NHL, Anze Kopitar. North America has more registered hockey players that Slovenia has inhabitants. There are 435 canadian players in the NHL out of 637.000 eligible registrated players at Canadian Hockey Association . That is 0.0683%. One slovenian player out of 180 registered players at Ice Hockey Federation of Slovenia (Hokejska zveza Slovenije) is 0.555%. I think those number speak for themself.

I thought maybe you would like this analogy because you like to stay to facts and stats.

In the end, this doesn't prove anything. That doesn't mean Slovenia has better athlets or that they are inherenthly disadvantaged in competitions.

I, personally however, think that being among top teams in Europe (currently) and being able to compete with the best in the world is a great achievement for the country and its athletes. I think it's fair to praise them for their run in the ECH.

You said yourself, North Macedonia and Slovenia both have a population of ~2M, yet Slovenia is ranked 17th by FIVB and North Macedonia 131st.

I think I already shared my thoughs on the game between the two. I'll just copy my final thought.

When it comes to stats and past achievements I have nothing to add. I agree with you, historically Slovenia's NT didn't have any visible results and major success. Although, However, I hope we can agree that the team has played well the last couple of years when compared to their previous results and has improved. I think this is Slovenia's peak performance at the moment in term of the result (not their gameplay on the court).

We might not agree on our individual and personal interpretation of a top team but I think I was careful with my choice of words. I called Slovenia's NT a top team while Poland and Rusia World class. I'm not arguing with your tier list though, quite contrary I agree with it. I'm just voicing my opinion that Slovenia's NT is deservedly in the final of ECH 2019 and looking at the most recent results can be called a top team.

With that out of the way. Let's enjoy today's game.

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TBH, I am a Poland NT hater most of the time, I don't like Heynen and some of Polish players. But I do agree they are one of best teams in the world, based on the stats in world tournaments.

The basic logic is: if we say Slovenia is a top team because they beat Russia/Poland in knockout. Then how about when Slovenia lost to North Macedonia and Russia in group matches, can we say they are a bottom team? Clearly not. In this case we just say they have a good day or bad day. So what's the standard to define a top team (Class A team) and good team (Class B team)? I won't use I feel, I think, I sense or whatever words. I only check their NT stats, esp stats in Olympics, WCH and WC. Hard evidence talks, just like we evaluate a player by his stats in the whole season, not just by several games.

If someone said Slovenia is a top team in this ECH, I agree. But if someone said Slovenia is a top team in the world, I do not agree. A top team, by default, should be defined or checked by spanning a certain period of time, such as a few years, to make it more convincing. Just my 2 cents.

serdar wrote:

I don't get that why you think the only criteria to call a team strong is to play semis in OG, WCh or WC? Pol haven't reached semis in almost 40 years, same with France and Serbia. Indeed, with your logic France shouldn't be count as strong team because their only success in FIVB tournaments was reaching semis in 2014 WCh.

Poland got WCH champion twice in a row in 2014 and 2018. Do you know a country called Yugoslavia who got one time Olympics Bronze metal in 1996, one time Olympics champion in 2000, one time runners-up in WCH 1998, one time 4th place in WCH 2002, and one time Bronze metal in WC 2003. Do you have the idea of the relationship of Yugoslavia and Serbia? France got one time Bronze metal in WCH 2002, and one time 4th place in WCH 2014.

Well, since you don't focus on men's volleyball, you probably don't even know the name of players, and you don't even watch Men's club games, It makes no sense to argue with you about men's volleyball.

It seems if China beat Serbia tomorrow, they will win the title no matter what the result of the last game is.

China is the best team in the tournament for sure. They have improved a lot since WCH 2018.

FlyingCrow wrote:

Don't think that possible for a country that's only 28 years old, mate.

Maybe to provide some insight from my point of view.

Slovenia only has a population of ~2M, while Poland and Russia have 38M and 146M, respectively.

No matter how you look at it it's a great feat for Slovenia's NT to achieve such results. No need to downplay their achievement by saying they never achieved any great results in the past. Every team has to start somewhere and while their team has had the same core for several tournaments, this is probably their peak performance, also due to the outstanding support from the stands.

Poland and Russia are World-class teams that are always in running for the top finishes while Slovenia is a good team with a chance to upset at best.

Also, don't forget that Slovenia qualified for VNL (over Germany and Russia, if I remember correctly) but was denied competing due to the change in the competition.

Slovenia also had a positive record against Poland at two previous ECH. While they lost in a tough OQT group the narrative of having a positive record was heavily emphasised in the media and team environment. While you might say that is not important and only the most recent results count, then I would counter that by that logic also Slovenia's only most recent results count but we both know that isn't so.

And to briefly touch on the game against North Macedonia. Maybe you could slightly compare yesterdays game against Russia's QF approach against Slovenia. Both were very confident and were most likely already thinking ahead about their next opponent in the next round. Russia had every right after a clean 3:0 victory in the group and Poland has been quite cocky, at least the media portrayed it so.

Some goes for Slovenia, when they were already out of the group they underestimated North Macedonia and were only thinking about their group match against Russia. As you said yourself, having a bad day and playing one bad game does not make the losing team bad or the winning team good.

As for the upcoming matches. I think if France plays like they did in the QFs they shouldn't have troubles reaching the Finals. Serbia struggled against Ukraine that were also on verge on winning the 2nd set which could change the flow and results of that game.

I also think that Slovenia, while having a quite miraculous run, will have a hard time continuing their form in the Finals with no home support. Also, in the most recent results, France defeated Slovenia 3:0 in OQT, while it was close from what I remember. Nonetheless, we will see what will happen.

For the 3rd place game I think Poland are the clear favourites.

The results are what they are, lets just enjoy the remaining games and hope for quality volleyball matches.

Edit; Grammar

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Thanks for the reply in details. I agree with some parts of your points. Well, this topic could be subjective, so I am not gonna argue it anymore. Just give out my opinion.

I don't think population could be used as an excuse. What really matters is the population that engages in sports. Otherwise, China and India Men volleyball should be No. 1 and No.2 in the world because their population is No.1 and No.2 in the world.

North Macedoni's population is also about 2M. They rank 131 in world volleyball ranking, but they beat Slovenia at 3:1 in ECH group match a few days ago. Can we make a conclusion that North Macedoni is a strong team? And how many people have guts to jump out to say Slovenia is a strong team at that time?

Like I said, to evaluate a NT, you'd better show me the stats in Olympics, WCH and WC. I agree that Slovenia did not have chances to compete in some tournaments due to the limitation of rules and regulations. Let's take a look at Slovenia's NT performance overall.

They rank at 25th in VNL 2016 and 13th in VNL 2017. They rank 12th in WCH 2018. Plus this year, Slovenia made to ECH final twice. It's their highlight. They got 8-9th place three times, and 13-16th three times as well. Maybe some people can call them a strong team, but I do not think so.

IMHO, my list of active strong teams (Class A teams) is: Brazil, USA, Russia, Poland, Italy, Serbia and France.

The list of the second class teams (Class B teams) is: Argentina, Canada, Iran, Belgium, Bulgaria, Netherlands, Slovenia, Australia

Buijs' pass is always an issue for NED.

Congrats to China.

Which team's reception is shaky, which team start to struggle.

NED's two unforced errors gave up the leads.

Li Yingying was too nervous in set #3. She was more confident when playing for Tianjin club.

NED finds their rhythm. The game looks interesting now.

Ding OPP again. LOL

Nice back setup to Zhu by Ding

I feel the level of this NED team dropped a lot, compared with their status Rio 2016.

Now NED had errors after errors.

Zhu's attack at pos 4 is solid as usual. Zhang and Gong also contribute to the team.

Yuan's attack and block improved a lot in this WC, compared with her performance in WCH 2018.

If this China team play in WCH 2018, they might win the trophy.

NED played with more confidence than set #1. Now the games is entertaining to watch.

Phil wrote:

Right, but saying that those players are average... When Vincić started playing in polish league many people were saying he's too weak to play there.

Btw, Poland played their worst game against the weakest team in the pool - Estonia

I'm surprised Slovenia managed to be in the big final but anyway saying they are just bunch of random players is not right.

Of course, They are not a bunch of Random players in Slovenia's team. I followed Urnaut's most games in Modena. I know his real level. Cebulj played in China league last season. He was benched a few times because of his poor reception in Shanghai team. But today his reception was amazing.

Gasparini played for Korean league. I also watched several of his games. He's already 35 year old. Stern was with Latina last season. Latina ranked in No.11 after regular season in 2018-19. They did not even make into playoff. The OPP of Slovenia is a bit weak, compared with top teams. But Stern played a great game today.

I watched the Challenge Cup (for the last ticket of VNL 2020) last month, including a few matches of Slovenia. They played totally like two different teams in CC and in ECH 1/4 and 1/2. They almost lost to Bielarus. And they lost to North Macedonia in ECH group match. North Macedonia ranks in 131 in FIVB's world ranking in 2018.

Based on Slovenia's history, I won't give them the credit as a strong team, even though they beat two top teams in the home court. If they could make final 4 in Olympics, WCH or WC some day, I will change my opinion.

Phil wrote:

Yes, you got me XD

Tbh, I don't think there are teams in volleyball ready to win each competition.

I don't like they way some people are talking about gold medal in Tokyo. First, let's win the quarterfinals

Also I don't know why some people are shocked that Vincić, Urnaut or Cebulj plays on good level.

Prediction does not have to take the responsibility. Top dogs are always favorite teams. That's common sense.

When Slovenia lost to North Macedonia at 1:3 in group match, where were you?

bumpsetspike wrote:

Ding Xia is both aggressive and defensive which is why I like her!

Ding Xia has fighting spirits. Some Chinese fans call her "Ding OPP" because she likes to attack.

Sometimes her setting is not stable, but overall, she's a good setter.

Ognjenovic, Ding and Wolosz are three of my favorite active setters.

serdar wrote:

What matters is their most recent performance. They didn't win only against one favourite, they did it TWICE! It wasn't like a lucky draw that could allow them skip strongest team. They have beaten two so-called strongest teams in this tournament with a convincing performance (not even playing a tie-break). It is very unfair to call their success as luck.

So what? They won two top dogs in home court, which did not give them enough credit for a strong team. Please review the group game. Slovenia lost to North Macedonia at 1:3, then lost to Russia at 0:3. Do you have any idea of what level North Macedonia is on? Where are you at that time?

Like I said, every team have a good day or a bad day. A strong team should be evaluated by overall performances. Show me some evidence how good Slovenia are by their stats in Olympics, WCH and WC - the most important games for NT. If my memory serves well, Slovenia has never entered the final 4 in Olympics, WCH and WC in last 70 years.

serdar wrote:

Don't be such a sore loser dude! There is no luck in sports, it is just an excuse for the loser team. Slovenia played epic and shut the mouth of people like you who discredited them

Everyone could have a good day or bad day. That they played great in last two great games did not mean they are a strong team. Why is that difficult to understand? Check their records in Olympics, WCH and WC, show me some evidence how good they are before you boldly call someone a sore loser.

mariuszj1939 wrote:

Sorry, I dislike your comments at all !!!

I sent congrats Slovenia and I expressed what I observed.

Each set was so close and Slovenia won that all. Have they played on similar level except ECH ?

PS - I do not like behaviour of one European federation (who always added strange rules on WCH) and expecially one of their player but … it's my personal feeling not published on forum.

Slovenia did play very well in 1/4 and 1/2 ECH. It does not mean they are a strong team, otherwise their world ranking won't be just 17.

Today, both Urnaut and Cebulj played beyond their normal level. Urnaut even made two back row spikes at pos 5, which seldom happened when he played for Modena. Cebulj's reception was amazing with 50+%. But he chocked a few times in reception line even in Chinese league.

Check out the game Slovenia vs Bielarus last month. They fight for the last ticket for VNL 2020. Slovenia almost lost to Bielarus in that game. It's all about timing. When the team are in a good condition while playing an important game, you're lucky.

Phil wrote:

I feel the same and it's not about Leon but people saying for many years that with Leon Poland is going to win each competition. Commentators saying that there is 70% chance Poland will win the gold medal at the OG...

Experts saying Slovenia is easy opponent and Poland shouldn't worry at all...

I think today's loss will be good lesson for all of them.

Slovenia was amazing today ❤️ I hope they will win gold this year.

They made a prediction, based on common sense.

No one guarantees it's 100% right. Otherwise, they could buy lottery.

If Poland won today, you probably just shut up. Now they lost, so you jumped out to show off how smart you are. Good move!