Posts by Postyates

    In the case of Venturini, perhaps you loved her as a volleyball player but we don’t really know these players as people. Maybe you don’t agree but I think it’s possible to still admire and respect her as an athlete but also criticise and condemn her personal actions.

    I actually think it is possible. I still admire her career as a volleyball player. I wouldn't be able to take it away from myself, cause that's part of my history as a volleyball fan too. I just cannot bring myself to root to them.

    In a way, I think it's easier to deal with this if it's a player who already finished their career. I think it'd be a lot harder if it was someone still playing. That's why I can appreciate the game (for instance, yesterday Brazil vs France was a hell of a match) but I can't root. I was going through some social nework posts, and I saw people ecstactic over our win and all I could think to myself was: really? Those guys? Ok.

    Can't disagree more. I judge their opinions and ideas with my point of view. I don't see why it is wrong. With your logic, shouldn't we criticize people who were supporting slavery because at that era it was fine?

    I don't think your point of view is necessarily contradictory to Janko's. By the way, this topic is super complex, but very interesting. I think both of you are saying that we shouldn't give a pass on people of the past, because they were aware of their own decisions. Slave owners from the 16th century on, colonial "conquistadores", men who opressed women, etc, they all knew what they were doing and also knew that they were big hypocrites by preaching "good works" in theory, while in fact they were exploring other people for their own benefit. At the same time, we shouldn't lose track that each time has its own cultural settings, so even if explicitly immoral, it's different being a racist when you live in the 21st century, have easy access to knowledge, etc, and being a racist, say, during the Reconstruction post Civil War in USA when pretty much racism was the norm. Obviously: I'm not saying it was ok to be racist back then, but you were living under conditions where not being one was a lot less common, therefore, extraordinary. We know how the individual feels peer pressure from the group.

    For instance: once I taught a class of 13-year-olds about Galileo and the Inquisition and I assigned them to put themselves on Galileo's shoes and write a short text about what they would do if they were forced to relinquish Heliocentrism in order to save their own lives. 100% of my students claimed they would be willing to sacrifice their own lives and some even called Galileo a coward for not doing so. :D Anyway, by their own experience, I think they should know it's not as easy being the odd man out.

    So, I think Janko stressed that different times set different rules about what's to be considered morally acceptable or not, but obviously that's not an absolute thing. And, actually, when we go even further back in time, I think it gets trickier and trickier. I mean, I know a slave owner from the 16th century should be conscious of how immoral his actions were. But how about the 6th century BC? I actually don't know.

    Wow, really thank you for this. After the Serbia VNL incident, I can't seem to bring myself to like the Serbia team anymore like the way I used to, especially after one player said team USA was exaggerating. I felt like the team and whole Serbia org didn't apologize well and didn't have any remorse on what they did even before (I only found out about the racist group photo recently).

    But as I've read your post, being someone who doesn't consume animal products as well, I've come to think why I don't demand the same accountability to meat-eaters the same way I do with the ones who committed racist actions. Where do I draw the line in judging these people based on their actions/beliefs? It's something I can reflect on so thank you for this.

    Also, thank you to Postyates for opening up this discussion. May we have more human beings like you people so the world will be a better place :win:

    Thank you. By the way, could you ellaborate on the VNL incident? I totally skipped the VNL, so I don't really know what's it about.

    I’m sorry you feel you can’t express yourself here just because you sometimes disagree with the prevailing viewpoints around here. I don’t really want the place to turn into an echo chamber.

    Personally I don’t judge athletes by their social positions unless they are really, really repugnant. That’s partly because I don’t really expect athletes to have particularly educated or thoughtful takes on this stuff but it’s not just that. Put it this way: I think our treatment of animals is absolutely abhorrent and I have quite a hardcore position on that. But if I cut ties with all people who eat meat then I’d miss out on a lot of good and otherwise intelligent people. What I mean is just because someone holds a position that you consider totally wrong, ignorant or harmful doesn’t always mean they’re “bad” people.

    But that’s just my opinion. Everybody has their own limits of what they tolerate and I’m not going to attack anyone who changes their mind on an athlete because of something they did/said.

    You know what? I totally see your point. I try to think I'm not very judgemental about people in general too, and I definitely don't feel I need people to agree with me in order for me to appreciate them. But I think some lines have been crossed these past couple of years specially, due to the whole Covid thing. I mean, different things may push people's different buttons, but some things have to do pretty much with just human decency, you know?

    I'll give an example. One of my all time favorite players is Brazilian setter Fernanda Venturini, who played for our NT from the 80's until 2004. I can definitely say she's one of the biggest reasons for me becoming so attached to volleyball. With the passing of the years, I started paying attention at some of the stuff she would say out loud, and it didn't take me long to realize we didn't see eye to eye on most topics. Actually, she's said some pretty nasty things in the past, and though I wish she didn't, I still tried to respect her as a person, because in spite of everything, I'm still very grateful for what she has done as a volleyball player.

    Last month, she went viral in Brazil, it totally broke out of the volleyball bubble, because she posted a video on her social network, celebrating the fact she was getting vaccinated from Covid. However, she said she didn't believe in the vaccine and she was only doing so in order for her to be able to travel around the world. Her tone was particularly distasteful. She laughed, she sounded arrogant, like mocking the situation. That is repulsive in itself. But if you take in perspective, with everything that's been going on in our country... The way the government dealt with the pandemic, how many people died and suffered, and are still suffering... It's too much, you know? It's not really being a human being... I can't get passed that.

    And I'm giving an example that's very extreme. But I'm also in awe at the silent treatment that lots of other important people are giving off... I think this is an important time in history, specially if you are a bellwether. I mean, at the end of the day, it's that Spiderman thing: with great power comes great responsibility. I have a hard time not seeing it like that anymore. Can't un-see what I already saw.

    EDIT: Besides Sisko, I think in thes message I meant to be replying to Serdar's initial post as well.

    Hi! Thank you so much for opening up in such an intimate and comprehensive way. One of the things that I find more cool about this sport, and this forum particularly, is the ability to connect with people from another part of the world and learning that, despite all the cultural specificities, we're not necessarily all that different in essence. I think your journey towards more awareness has been cool and inspiring. But obviously you had it in you, somewhere, to look for something maybe you didn't even know you needed to find. My hopeful side tries to believe there's more people like that out there.

    Firstly, my solidarity goes to the regions who've been struggling...

    Guys, I used to post on this forum now and then a long time ago, but wasn't able to regain access to my old account. Ever since the Covid thing, I haven't really payed attention to volleyball stuff, but now, since the Olympics started, I couldn't keep my eyes from it. But it's been a curious, different experience, with everything that's being going on in the world. I found myself increasingly drawn to the social, political aspects of it.

    For instance, I'm Brazilian, and I sorta can't bring myself to root for our male NT because of the political background of some our players. I think this has been discussed in this topic and others in the past, so right now I won't go much into it. But this week I've seen Maurício Souza and Wallace get themselves involved again in political discussions on their social networks. Maybe I'm just an old school guy, but I'm sorta in awe at how, even during the freaking Olympics, players find time to focus on other things that's not purely their performances. In other sports, I think analogous kind of examples, in a way or another, drew my attention too to this matter.

    I'd like to ask you guys about your personal experiences while watching this Olympics, and overall volleyball in general these days - like, if you also find yourselves suddenly thinking about that, liking or disliking certain players or teams because of this political background. I would also like to know more about the athletes' stances on social issues as a role, because I'm not very knowledgeble about that. For instance, I know Egonu has had a big impact in Italy, for being a black girl and openly gay, besides being a phenomenal player. I'd be interested in other examples in various capacities.

    But I'd like to know more about these sort of things, from different countries, considering both positive and negative examples, if you'd be so kind to share. I'm being pretty broad here: I'd like to know if athletes share their political thoughts, their opinions on social issues, such as racism, sexism, homophobia, religious issues, ethnic issues, war issues, environmental issues, government policies, mental health, Covid and vaccine, all the works. Please feel free to share anything you'd find of interest. My invitation extends to my fellow Brazilians too, because I haven't been following this as closely as I would like. Thanks.