Politics and social issues

    sitenoise, i follow paul krugman, the nobel prize winner, on the pages of the NYT. he had a theory about that. he once asked the question, why are working-class white folks in the US not more in the column of the democrats? after all, they should support all the economic populist proposals of the democrats (free/affordable health care, medicaid/medicare, education, etc.) that would benefit them. and his conclusion was, after some explanation of various factors, that the GOP's appeal to racism, ignorance and fear trumps the economic populism they should support... which i think is a very good explanation. (see the kentucky example i offered above.)


    in the US, it is also widespread the myth that the republicans are better for the economy (really? in the last 30 years, we saw clinton presiding over an economic boom and a shrinking deficit, then bush crashed the economy; then obama had to clean it up and then it was booming again; only to have the corrupt orange dump crash it again; and now it looks like biden will have to fix it again). (i'm not saying i loved clinton or obama policies, but they were certainly better than the GOP's -- for example, i hated clinton's relying on the rubin school for guidance, which obama also inherited.) and also the myth that the GOP is stronger on law and order or national security.


    but then people believe the dump is a self-made billionaire (NOT! he inherited billions from his father, or stole it from his other family). he went through several bankruptcies, his businesses were mostly a failure. he was so desperate for money that he had to start several scams, like his "university". if he were so rich, why would he need to steal money from desperate people, to take his fake courses? (my understanding is that he inherited $400 million from his father decades ago; that would be equivalent of someone inheriting over $2 billion today. if he were a lazy investor and put that money into investments decades ago and didn't do anything, he would not be any richer than he is today. so much for the financial genius myth.) i truly believe the major factor that got him elected was that awful TV show...


    people are stupid. they vote for what makes them feel better, not with their brains.


    also, way back in the 1990's, the democratic socialist writer michael harrington was on TV, and they asked him about the inequality in the US. and he said, when you tell the working class people how fucked up the US system is, how unequal it is, how biased towards the wealthy it is, people don't necessarily say, "omg, it's awful. let's change our system"; instead, they say, "how can i get to the top?"

    Quote from ossubtus

    also, way back in the 1990's, the democratic socialist writer michael harrington was on TV, and they asked him about the inequality in the US. and he said, when you tell the working class people how fucked up the US system is, how unequal it is, how biased towards the wealthy it is, people don't necessarily say, "omg, it's awful. let's change our system"; instead, they say, "how can i get to the top?"

    Yup, that's the crux of the issue. Basically, millions of Americans are willing to live in a system that shits on them every which way just on the hope that they might be one in 10.000 who will get lucky to become very wealthy. When you combine it with the bootstraps philosophy and the illusion of meritocracy where if you've got it, you must have deserved it (and if you DON'T got it, well then you must also have deserved THAT), and you have your standard conservative/republican voter.

    I think that one very important factor that hasnt been taken in consideration in the "rise of the right wing" is the HUGE disappoinment of the Left Wing parties worldwide. At least in Southamerica, it has been a HUGE flop (Foro de Sao Paulo downfall). I do agree that Bolsonaro success and current approval in Brazil (and in other countries) is due to all the reasons already mentioned here (religious, social, military, etc). But I'm still wondering why the "omissions" (some are even crimes) of the left wing parties arent even mentioned . The left wing parties around whole Southamerica has been deeply involved in filthy corruption scandals, which did help a lot in the "rise of the anger". That has a very deep impact in the average citizen (working class), who feels his daily challenge of surviving isnt understood by the "well educated and out of reality" Left wing leaders.


    It still amazes me how people cant see that Trump popularity and rise (worlwide) is deeply connected by the mistakes done by the Democrat Party and the Left Wing Mass Media, by far. It really amazed me people was super chocked when he won 4 years ago. Worlwide, people think US is only East and West Coast, but they do forget about the rustle belt, which tends to decide the Elections. Those people are FED UP of the lack of sense of reality of the Left Wing. Or do someone really think that Obama government was daisy and rose garden?

    As a Southamerican, who really knows what USA means to us, Trump represents the "core culture" of the US middle class. US isnt just LA, Miami and NY. So, it wasnt a surprise at all.

    Instead of poiting out what the other is doing wrong, Left Wing should check what they are doing wrong (worldwide) in order to let such a human being as Trump could be in charge of a country as USA. But so far, it has not happened yet. Same script than in 2016, so it wouldnt surprise me if Trump wins again.

    Same goes to Europe. I have been travelling to Europe every year since 2012 and gosh, the rise of the (extreme) right wing parties is deeply felt. Spain, France, Italy, ND,Germany, etc...It really scares me. People do not feel ashamed anymore to ask or say the first thing that comes to their minds. Some years ago, it would be unthinkable to listen to those questions, cuz they would be labelled as racist, homophic, clasist, etc. But now they are even seen on TV...

    The fact of feeling "moral and educated" superior to the others who dont share the same values has done that the Letf Wing parties and their supporters were prisioners of their own mistakes. We ask for tollerance, but we are the first who cant tollerate different ways of thinkings or ways to see the world. We could even see it in the forum. Instead of trying to explain why the other point of view is wrong, show arguments, etc, the first things is to label the other one as an ignorant, stupid, etc. Or the worse, to mock at him. Instead of trying to understand why someone became a Trump, Marine Le Pen, Salvini or Bolsonaro supporter, the first comment by the Left Wing Media is to make fun of him/her, to dismiss him/her. Hence, how couldnt you expect for such a rise of the anger?

    Quote from Leonardo.D

    It still amazes me how people cant see that Trump popularity and rise (worlwide) is deeply connected by the mistakes done by the Democrat Party and the Left Wing Mass Media, by far.

    I agree with you, it's totally on the Democrat party that Trump rose to power. Even in this election cycle, they axed candidates who promised change in favor of Biden. Joe Biden.


    They can cry all they want if they lose this election (I doubt they will though); I won't feel bad for them or any of their media outlets but it sure would suck for the American people and the people worldwide.

    I made $120 off a dozen $10 bets that Trump would win in 2016. I wasn't surprised. And it had a little to do with what you describe, in general terms. A little more to do with the way districting works in this country. And the Electoral College.


    But "corruption" isn't a policy, certainly not a "Left Wing" policy. Maybe in SA, I don't know.


    There's a weird overlap of different issues with regard to the coastal elites holier than thou pettiness. Take ossubtus 's Kentucky example. Or the Trumpers with their "Hey Government, keep your hands off my Medicare". It's hard to hear things like that and not think, 'yeah, we need to educate these people'. But it goes too far. As you say, instead of discussing those issues (as difficult as it may be--that's why everything devolves into name-calling) they denigrate and disparage the people beyond what they deserve -- in terms of "being seen and understood" as you describe.


    But when you get right down to it, Trump disrespects middle americans more than anyone. He would never allow any of them into one of his fancy hotels. He thinks they are stupid enough to believe the bullshit that comes out of his mouth. That bothers me.

    Quote from zhutingfan

    I agree with you, it's totally on the Democrat party that Trump rose to power. Even in this election cycle, they axed candidates who promised change in favor of Biden. Joe Biden.


    They can cry all they want if they lose this election (I doubt they will though); I won't feel bad for them or any of their media outlets but it sure would suck for the American people and the people worldwide.

    Exactly. The fact is that the Democratic party in America is not "Left Wing" but establishment centrists. They are completely beholden to the interests of their lobbyists and sponsors, and they are increasingly out of touch with the interests of majority of their own voters. Big money, big pharma, big military-industrial complex, oil-grabbing, regime-changing imperialistic wars, getting rich, staying in power: these are the only things most of them really care about.


    And yet, Republican party is undoubtedly worse, both for America and humanity. That is why, even more than Electoral College, the one thing that must go before everything else is political and electoral lobbying. That is the #1 factor in what makes USA a political hell-scape that it is today, and ultimately why someone like Trump got into power.

    If I were to be told: "Make one law that you think would make the country better most", I would make it a federal law to be illegal for any company or corporation whose worth exceeds a certain threshold (say, 1 million $) to donate any amount to either party or any individual politician or elected official, and to form a special unit that will investigate whether donating companies are not merely shell companies of major ones (and to make their investigations a public record).

    anybody who thinks the left wing is as bad as the right wing is obviously not paying attention.


    whatever the problems with lula & dilma pale in comparison with the bostanaro. the current “president” is 10,000,000x worse. not even close.


    same with the dems & the orange dump.

    biden or trump? Who will win?

    Quote from MTS

    biden or trump? Who will win?

    Trump seems to be more likely to winning, though it still a very open matter. For Biden to win he needs to confirm votes from Nevada, Wisconsin and win in one more state other than Alaska - either Philadelphia, Georgia, North Carolina or Michigan.

    there's still a silver lighting for Joe

    the Democratics are counting on the absentee ballots coming in to fill in the backwardness in the swing states until eventually to revert the situation

    Everyone's keeping an close eye on how things are gonna turn out

    if they count every vote , biden will win. the overwhelming majority of absentee/mail-in ballots should go for biden.


    that’s a big if. the republicans are good at fighting dirty, they don’t believe in democracy, only in power. they will try to steal this again.


    in any event, the US is not a true democracy. in 2000, gore won 500,000 more votes (even with nader in the race) and in 2016, hillary won 2,8 million more votes. but 80,000 votes in 3 states (a tiny percentage) negated 2,8 million. how’s that a democracy? increasingly the US is governed by a minority.


    right now biden has 2,7 million more votes than the orange dump.

    Thats crazy! In Brazil the one with more votes wins. But there is a day and a location that everybody needs to go to vote. Its a obligation to most people.

    about this madness: let’s talk about how the GOP/republican/right wing cannot win the war of ideas or for people’s votes in the US.


    since 1992, the GOP has won only one presidential popular vote (2004). the democrats won 6.


    so yeah, tell me about how the left is so bad ...

    Most Americans I see on the internet don't like Trump, but Trump will likely win the presidential election for the second time.This is so weird.Are people ashamed to say that they support Trump?


    Also When I look at the US presidential candidates, I think neither of them seem like the president of the most powerful country in the world.

    Quote from MTS

    Most Americans I see on the internet don't like Trump, but Trump will likely win the presidential election for the second time.This is so weird.Are people ashamed to say that they support Trump?


    Also When I look at the US presidential candidates, I think neither of them seem like the president of the most powerful country in the world.

    It's a matter of electoral system. Each state has an electoral value. California is worth 55 electoral votes, Alaska is worth 5 votes and so on. You need 270 votes to be elected. On the singolar votes Trump loses, but he is winning most of the key states. It seems Michigan (16 electoral votes) will decide the new elected president, assuming Biden wins in Nevada and Nevada and Winsonsin as it seems so far, which would mean he misses 16 electoral votes to reach 270. The other states left - Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Alaska - are pretty clear wins for Trump.


    Trump is 0,3% ahead in Michigan. :wall:

    Quote from QueenPiccininiLover

    It's a matter of electoral system. Each state has an electoral value. California is worth 55 electoral votes, Alaska is worth 5 votes and so on. You need 270 votes to be elected. On the singolar votes Trump loses, but he is winning most of the key states. It seems Michigan (16 electoral votes) will decide the new elected president, assuming Biden wins in Nevada and Nevada and Winsonsin as it seems so far, which would mean he misses 16 electoral votes to reach 270. The other states left - Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Alaska - are pretty clear wins for Trump.


    Trump is 0,3% ahead in Michigan. :wall:

    Biden is (barely) leading also in Michigan now


    Except for Alaska, the other 3 states are not so clearly wins for Trump, a bunch of mailed in votes are missing and those are going to be vastly in dem favour (Trump advised against mailing vote), so Biden could still swing it, that's what happened in Michigan and Winsconsin

    Also I loved how on tonight speech Trump was like "We clearly won in Winsconsin, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Georgia so we should stop counting votes. But keep counting in Arizona tho, I might still win that", gotta love the coherence lmao