Italian Women's NT 2023

    Quote from Colinaddicted

    Busa > >Pietrini/Hande


    End of comparison

    Good joke, do another one 😂

    İlkin Aydın-->Busa ,Pietrini,Hande :)

    What is the situation with Antropova?

    Quote from Sentenza_69

    If Mazzanti has kept his job up to now (and will keep it until Paris 2024), it is reasonable to think that no coach will ever be fired...

    He flopped in major tournaments but get gold in last 2 years

    Quote from Jules

    He flopped in major tournaments but get gold in last 2 years

    he didn't flop, he crashed...

    The main thing, however, is not the failure of the objectives, but the fact that he managed to break up the group with, let's say, a very questionable management...

    In fact he remains in his spot only because the Italian Federation's policy of prohibition of "dual assignment" does not allow to find an alternative to him...

    Quote from Realista

    He crashed at the Olympics, you could've argued at that time that he should be fired - but then he won ECH, VNL and bronze medal at the WCH, these are results no coach would've been fired for.

    Depends on what your expectations are. I personally find those results great, but if you expect Italian NT to dominate and win everything in the near future (as many, many on this site and wider did expect in 2021 and earlier, and not just Italians), then it's not so great. Especially because the 2 tournaments not won post-VNL 2021 are the 2 biggest tournaments in volleyball.

    Quote from Janko

    Depends on what your expectations are. I personally find those results great, but if you expect Italian NT to dominate and win everything in the near future (as many, many on this site and wider did expect in 2021 and earlier, and not just Italians), then it's not so great. Especially because the 2 tournaments not won post-covid are the 2 biggest tournaments in volleyball.

    Yeah, but that's the point: you just can't realistically follow this league season, watch Sylla, Pietrini, Orro, Bosetti or Egonu in a shape they are in, under different coaches than Mazzanti, and say that he flopped in not winning WCH with this roster.


    Italy CAN win major events, but when everything clicks, and I'm not a big fan of Mazzanti, but Orro, Sylla, Pietrini or Bosetti (and Egonu recently as well) are so streaky that the one should get more realistic about what is actually coach's fault. Yeah, Italy with a coach such as Santarelli or Ze Roberto could've been better, but this narrative about Mazzanti as weak a** coach is completely out of proportion, because it's not a given considering the criticism that eg. Guidetti gets from Turkish fans. The lack of new blood among setters and OHs to be honest will make it even more difficult for Italy to compete for the finals in next years, even in Europe, Serbia still has the best player in the world in her prime within the best team in the world, and Russia already has more talented roster (this is actually insane what a monstrous team they can create).

    As I wrote, to judge the work of Mazzanti, the main thing, is not the failure of the objectives...

    He destroyed the group of athletes and also managed the singles in a very approximate way...

    Let's take the example of the Egonu affair: you keep talking about racism, unfair Italian fans, etc. but, in reality, the matter is much more complicated and profound and Mazzanti has great responsibilities in the management of the athlete...

    ,

    Quote from Realista

    He crashed at the Olympics, you could've argued at that time that he should be fired - but then he won ECH, VNL and bronze medal at the WCH, these are results no coach would've been fired for.

    It is not only what he won but how the team played... The performances of Italy NT in ECH of 21 was the same with the performances of the Olympics. They was suck. Just they had to play with much worst teams ( in ECH) and in the final Egonu made her one and only good game in this Summer and Sylla made her life game... Also Boskovic was tired because she won alone the Turkey in the semifinal with 40 points in 4 sets.

    The last summer Italy was good in the VNL but after one month Egonu suddenly started to play worst and be much different, like she had a bad twin🤷🤷🤷.

    After that the team collapse and didn't play in their level. Do not look the bronze medal but the fact that they lost from a much weaker team which theoretically has worst players. Was a big failure to loose from this Brazil. Generally the last years the team played much worst than he can .

    After these performances the coach sould have been be fired.

    It is a big failure to take over a team before years to achieve things with young and super talented players who is ready to conquer the world and after four/ five year the team the team wich you taken over to be much worst.

    It is unbelievable that in 2018 with almost the same team go the final of a much competitive WCH compare to the WCH of 22 and now....

    Also if you noticed the last two years the players came from their clubs in a really good shape and in NT just the lights out.

    I am sure that it is not only the coach and there are many problems in this team but the change of the coach it is completely necessary. It will change the psychology and will bring new thing on the table.

    Also unfortunately I am sure that Manzatti will make the same calls for the summer and I am very pessimistic for the future of Italy's team.

    Ok... we're clearly going off-topic, but Steven12453 you're one of the few I've ever heard say sensible things about it, I have to tell you...

    Quote from Steven12453

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    ...

    This is a wrong thread, so I'll respond and evacuate in hurry (please move these posts to the Italian NT thread, thank you), but:


    1. Nope, Italy was both as a team and individually in much better shape at the ECH 2021 than at the Olympics (what's the biggest criticism you can have towards Mazzanti IMHO): Sylla-Pietrini duo was actually playing great in playoff-phase at the ECH, with Pietrini playing her life-best volleyball at that time (she was co-MVP of that tournament easily), Mazzanti also switched Malinov with Orro at that time.

    2. Egonu had non-spectacular WCH according to her standards (she was still the best scorer of the competition, so these are super-human effort expectations) - the problem is she moved to Vakifbank, where she works with beloved Guidetti and ... she's completely overshadowed by Boskovic, still not playing her best. That's my point, it is kind of weird to assume it's Mazzanti's fault.

    3. And yeah, Italy with almost the same team peaked at the 2018 WCH, but again, that's the point: Malinov-Sylla duo is nowhere near being good under any coach while the biggest asset of Orro is still her citizenship. Mazzanti isn't without a fault (weird system choices, flopped at the Olympics, narrow-minded roster choices), but it's not flopping, it's expecting from him to create magic out of okay players.

    4. And yeah, Mazzanti will make similar calls for the summer, because on these crucial positions (OH, S) whom do you expect to be called-up? Villani? Omoruyi? Italy had decent junior results with 00-03 generations, but there's no single up-and-coming player giving a promise to crack up a starting lineup in Paris. Italy can dream of Ana Cristina-Julia B-level players to reinforce their OH rotation. The biggest Italian talent is a player that may not be available to even play for Italy. The next cycle looks much better in this regard with Manfredini etc.


    And again - Mazzanti isn't perfect, he's not top-tier coach in my eyes, but at some point it actually looked like Italy can dominate female volleyball (they had Egonu and a whole group of young players already at good/very good level), the problem is these players didn't develop, yet people still expect Italy to dominate. With Egonu not being able for whatever reason to play on this super human effort level, the Italian roster is just ... unimpressive.


    So, once again, if someone wanted Mazzanti to get fired after the Olympics (me included), this is a fair assessment, since then Italy's results are much closer to their actual potential than people realize. If Russia were there, I don't think they'd be my pick for any medal at the Paris OG.

    Italy played much better in the ECH 2021 than at the OG. Ask anyone and tell you that. Had they performed at that level, they would have won an Olympic medal for sure. Even Terzic mentioned how he didn't understand how they managed to win against Italy at the OG with that Italian roster.

    That thing about Bosko is the same old. It's almost as saying that Italy didn't win the WCH 2018 just because Egonu was tired after scoring 45 points against Olympic champion China.

    The players are not blamed. It's not like they suddenly decide to play badly.

    Here those at fault are the federation and Mazzanti. Everyone saw that Italy was not in shape for the WCH when this one was the main event. It doesn't matter that you win the two previous more important (Ech and VNL) when you can't bring the best of your time during the most important competition. And Italy was to anyone the clear favorite by miles.

    The bronze medal at the WCH was failure under any standard. Italy was the clear favorite and was playing great volleyball until the end of the VNL. He didn’t need to create magic out of okay players. Those players were playing very well but he managed to bring an Italy completly out of shape for the WCh. A coach is responsible for not only the physical aspect but also the psychological of the players and he failed big time there.

    Brazil is the biggest example. ZR managed to bring the best of a newly formed team through smart choices, deep understanding of the players, carefully managing the team from VNL to WCH. Mazzanti didn't do anything to change the course of the team at WCh when it was clear they were struggling. The 1st round was a clear indicator that the team was underpeforming and his was only hoping for a miracle that it finally clicks during later rounds which didn't happen.

    I agree, Italy played much better at ECH 2021. No way did they "suck", although their form noticeably improved toward the end of the competition (and that's a good thing; you want your team to time their peak). Especially their OH lineup (what is now their greatest weakness alongside setters). It was because of how their OHs played that many (most) people in volleyball fandom proclaimed that competition as Italy's "coronation time", when they have finally fulfilled potential of being world conquerors, and would go on to dominate world volleyball. The following summer (WCH was in the fall, strictly speaking) only seemed to confirm that, with not only seniors winning VNL, but every single one of their youth teams winning gold (I think?). So, it's interesting to consider how much a 6 month period can radically change picture...


    And that's the thing. We humans are incredible prone to recency bias in everything, but maybe most especially in sports. From summer of 2019 until summer 2021 it was China that looked set (in the minds of fans) to dominate near future, then USA after Tokyo, then Italy. Some even said as much of Serbia after WCH, even though many of those same people wrote them off for good as a candidate for any gold just a year earlier...


    What's my point? Don't yet despair of Italy's chances. The picture might look really different by the end of the year, let alone by next year's summer.

    Quote from Andreavillar

    The bronze medal at the WCH was failure under any standard. Italy was the clear favorite and was playing great volleyball until the end of the VNL. He didn’t need to create magic out of okay players. Those players were playing very well but he managed to bring an Italy completly out of shape for the WCh. A coach is responsible for not only the physical aspect but also the psychological of the players and he failed big time there.

    Brazil is the biggest example. ZR managed to bring the best of a newly formed team through smart choices, deep understanding of the players, carefully managing the team from VNL to WCH. Mazzanti didn't do anything to change the course of the team at WCh when it was clear they were struggling. The 1st round was a clear indicator that the team was underpeforming and his was only hoping for a miracle that it finally clicks during later rounds which didn't happen.

    With your way of thinking, one could fault coaches for underperformance, but they... are not to be credited for their successes? Was it not at least in part due to Mazzanti that Italy was regarded as a favourite (clear is arguably too strong a word, but they were favourite #1, no questions). Was he not Italy's coach for ECH 2021 and 2022 VNL (and before that, WCH 2018).


    What about the player's own part in failures? Are you aware of numerous rumours concerning Pietrini (of her lack of 100% commitment to volleyball and fulfilling her potential, of her fragile psychological makeup, weird choices like not wanting to wear kneepads etc.)? Are you aware of the rumours that the entire NT was for years split into two camps due to a lover's quarrel, pro-Folie and pro-Pietrini, and that Sylla and Pietrini (who were often on the court together) would simple refuse to acknowledge each other's presence due to Sylla being Folie's bestie. That you couldn't substitute Egonu or she would get offended and sulk.


    Even if most of those are unture, to paraphrase a common saying: "Where there's lots of smoke, there's bound to be at least a little of fire". And would you lay the entire blame for all of it on Mazzanti's door? Players have no agency? No choices in their own actions?

    Quote from Andreavillar

    The bronze medal at the WCH was failure under any standard. Italy was the clear favorite and was playing great volleyball until the end of the VNL. He didn’t need to create magic out of okay players. Those players were playing very well but he managed to bring an Italy completly out of shape for the WCh.

    This is one interpretation. The other is why Sylla, Bosetti, Pietrini, Orro or Egonu still play on WCH-level 6 months after WCH, under different coaches, if it was such a big under-performance?


    I'm not saying they couldn't have played better, I guess they could, I said on the other thread that they actually played better during VNL than WCH, my point is Italy isn't as strong on paper as some believe to dominate international volleyball, and if someone complains about VNL-bronze medal at WCH double, this is a standard you expect.


    If your point of reference is Ze Roberto (GOAT-level coach), then yeah, I wish he was a coach of Italy as well.

    Quote from Janko

    What's my point? Don't yet despair of Italy's chances. The picture might look really different by the end of the year, let alone by next year's summer.

    Italy still has one of the best teams in the world, with one of the best youth systems in the world. I can see them winning Olympic gold. I don't think they're good enough to EXPECT such results tho.